BJJ Naming Idea: Split Half Guard into Two Positions

[EndlessCritic]

When I started watching MMA over 15 years ago, half guard was a simple idea: If you have one of your opponent's legs trapped, they're in your half guard. Simple. Easy.

When I started training BJJ, half guard was one of those positions where my ignorance was badly exposed. Any time I tried to hold onto half guard (and "hold on" is definitely what I was doing), I would get passed about 99% of the time.

It took me easily six months before I understood the distinction between a half guard position that the bottom player is generally aiming to achieve, like this:

And a half guard position that the top player is generally trying to achieve, like this:

It is silly that we use the same name to describe both of these positions. Worse -- it is misleading to outside observers and beginners to use the same name to describe these positions, when they are so functionally different.

So, I propose two ideas.

First, if the top player gets to that position in the bottom picture (knee line passed, outside leg not in knee shield/butterfly, bottom player's shoulders are pinned through crossface or some other means), we should call the position something else, possibly Half Mount.

By contrast, if the bottom player is still exercising control (ie: through knee shield, butterfly hook, or is generally on their side), we should call this a Half Guard.

Second, I think in BJJ competitions, the achieving of "Half Mount" for x seconds should receive some type of score to signify that it is a milestone form of control.


Now tell me why I'm wrong.

 

[rmongler]

First, if the top player gets to that position in the bottom picture (knee line passed, outside leg not in knee shield/butterfly, bottom player's shoulders are pinned through crossface or some other means), we should call the position something else, possibly Half Mount.

By contrast, if the bottom player is still exercising control (ie: through knee shield, butterfly hook, or is generally on their side), we should call this a Half Guard.

Second, I think in BJJ competitions, the achieving of "Half Mount" for x seconds should receive some type of score to signify that it is a milestone form of control.

In the ibjjf format you actually did used to get scored for getting half mount/underhook half (such as an advantage), but that was changed in more recent years. I share the sentiment in any case though.

 

[EndlessCritic]

In the ibjjf format you actually did used to get scored for getting half mount/underhook half (such as an advantage), but that was changed in more recent years. I share the sentiment in any case though.

Shows how much I follow the BJJ scene. (Which is zero.)

 

[Os3y3ris]

Smash half is whats that called.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Here's a legitimate counterpoint:

In MMA, "Half mount" is objectively not a strong GNP/submission position. Ironically, guys can often do way more damage while posturing from a knee shield position. So while the distinction I bring up is meaningful in a grappling context, it's far less significant in an MMA context when you introduce strikes on the ground.

 

[rmongler]

Here's a legitimate counterpoint:

In MMA, "Half mount" is objectively not a strong GNP/submission position. Ironically, guys can often do way more damage while posturing from a knee shield position. So while the distinction I bring up is meaningful in a grappling context, it's far less significant in an MMA context when you introduce strikes on the ground.

Ehh, when you're turking the legs you have great control over the opponent's hips, which is why it is often used in wrestling for keeping a guy down.

 

[kpoz12]

What does Dantheowlfman.com have to say about this tho?

 

[lechien]

Shows how much I follow the BJJ scene. (Which is zero.)

Rmongler is correct.
Now regarding the need to rename to half mount, don't bother.
Yes there are so many nuances within the half guard system. I watched the Cao tierra 101 techniques from half guard.
There is also the 1/4 guard as well to add to the debate. Would you rename the 3/4 mount instead?

 

[EndlessCritic]

Rmongler is correct.
Now regarding the need to rename to half mount, don't bother.
Yes there are so many nuances within the half guard system. I watched the Cao tierra 101 techniques from half guard.
There is also the 1/4 guard as well to add to the debate. Would you rename the 3/4 mount instead?

From an MMA perspective 1/4 guard can be a better position for the top player than mount...

 

[rmongler]

There is also the 1/4 guard as well to add to the debate. Would you rename the 3/4 mount instead?

Folks say both interchangeably.

 

[RJ Green]

What does Dantheowlfman.com have to say about this tho?

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

I mean, don't they just call it quarter guard when it's bad? I'm not jj expert but I thought half guard was when you're up on their thigh high enough to have an underhook, and quarter guard is when you're around their knee to ankle area on the shin and it's easy to knee shield or things like that.

 

[rmongler]

I mean, don't they just call it quarter guard when it's bad? I'm not jj expert but I thought half guard was when you're up on their thigh high enough to have an underhook, and quarter guard is when you're around their knee to ankle area on the shin and it's easy to knee shield or things like that.

A half-guard that's smashed flat still has the opponent's legs around your thigh. 'Quarter-guard' is generally whenever they're hanging on to your ankle for dear life with their legs to stop you from passing fully. In formal terms this situation can technically arise from something like a knee cut situation, but it's not really significant there since if they have no knee shield, butterfly hook, underhook, or any other kind of frame stopping you, then them hanging onto your ankle is just a momentary speedbump. In substantial terms, the difference between a half-guard situation, and where one most commonly finds what is called a quarter-guard situation, is whether the opponent is on his hip facing the outside of your leg, or on his hip facing the inside of your leg, where the bottom player often uses his arms to block the leg from slipping out (this being what is often also called quarter mount).

Rolling the opponent's hips over to the other side is a basic expression of dominance in a half guard and open guard situation, where it is then easy to pass, strike, or attack submissions at leisure.



(2:00)

 

[EndlessCritic]

A great concept, but watching the guy on the bottom turn on his side like that without an underhook or knee shielding just makes me cringe.

It's also a very interesting contrast to the clip posted by InvisibleJiuJitsu a few weeks ago:

 

[rmongler]

A great concept, but watching the guy on the bottom turn on his side like that without an underhook or knee shielding just makes me cringe.

It's also a very interesting contrast to the clip posted by InvisibleJiuJitsu a few weeks ago:

Im not sure if i would use the word 'contrast' for it, since the common element is getting the underhook in the first place, and it ends with pushing his knee to the other side all the same. If you get an underhook, then it's that that counts, and everything else afterwards is more or less just details in execution.

You can see the use of rolling the hips to go from being inside the front of the opponent's legs, to attacking the back angle outside of them, in how Demian Maia passes butterfly guards, as well.

 

[lechien]

Folks say both interchangeably.

Nope. Because in bjj, points system is awarded for mount with 4 points.
You cannot award 4 points until he frees his foot from the half or 3/4 guard
Therefore you should NOT refer it as 3/4 mount.
Just my opinion

 

[rmongler]

Nope. Because in bjj, points system is awarded for mount with 4 points.
You cannot award 4 points until he frees his foot from the half or 3/4 guard
Therefore you should NOT refer it as 3/4 mount.
Just my opinion

In any case, people do use both interchangeably, which is what i said.

 

[DatCutman]

It is strange that having the lasso against someone's arm, who then achieves top side will result in a guard pass (3 full points) after 3 seconds, but having a crossface, overhook, both shoulders and both hips pinned, and just your ankle trapped in thighs, for an infinite amount of time, results in jack squat.

 

[EndlessCritic]

It is strange that having the lasso against someone's arm, who then achieves top side will result in a guard pass (3 full points) after 3 seconds, but having a crossface, overhook, both shoulders and both hips pinned, and just your ankle trapped in thighs, for an infinite amount of time, results in jack squat.

I don't follow BJJ rules at all. Would any referee actually score that as a pass?

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I don't follow BJJ rules at all. Would any referee actually score that as a pass?

I would think so if the lasso guy is just sitting there. But he has some options I doubt it happens much