BJJ compared to Luta Livre / video series

[Drunken MastA]

Hello guys, I just found out about this youtube series, because it was discussed controversially in another forum. What do you think about the different approaches / principles? (Videos by ADCC veteran Nicolas Renier)

 

[xMTDx]

Nicolas Renier. His coaches Pequeno and Leozada are some of my favourite grapplers. Also check out the old cacareco vs filho match for good comp footage of the style differences. It was ruled a draw but cacareco clearly won.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

I've trained at Leopoldo Serao's Luta Livre & BJJ academy before, in Mountain View, CA. Leopoldo was a student of Eugenio Tadeu and although he is also a BJJ black belt, his primary style is luta livre. His approaches to many situations are definitely different than what many consider conventional. He also uses guillotines and many standard chokes with many variations that I've never seen before and are very effective

 

[tekkenfan]

arnt there only like 10 luta livre schools on the planet?

 

[Gnosisrausch]

Haha, there are a lot more in Germany already. For some reason, Luta Livre gained huge popularity here a few years back. Personally, I prefer the BJJ approach, even though I started in Luta Livre.

 

[Ryo]

Why do they wear belts over rash guards? Its no gi.

 

[lechien]

Why do they wear belts over rash guards? Its no gi.

Some of their school use the belt system for obvious reasons.

It is not endorsed by the entire LL community. But the one that do wear the bjj BB. You know. Which one . The BB with red tab and white stripe on each side.

 

[nefti]

Cliffs on the differences?

 

[lechien]

Cliffs on the differences?

Not much difference.

First video is the difference between guard pass on the knees. But too vague just to compare 2 techniques and conclude that LL uses the hip more compare to bjj uses upper body control more. My suspicion is that bjj control the upper body due to stokes but it is my theory.

Second video is about about side control. Bjj controls the upper body by shoulder of justice and underhook while LL prefer sternum to sternum pressure with elbow against the throat. However, I have a student that does similar side control because he is very light and therefore would get reverse if he used the "traditional" side control. Also he points out that BJJ would recompose closed guard. LL would not recompose the guard because they do leg lock from white belt. I teach both ways in my bjj classes. It is more a personal choice and how your opponent reacts .some people prefer grabbing the leg or playing guard. It is interesting to see that person drops for a straight ankle because that is legal for white belt.

Third video is about turtle turn over to back take. He talk about that bjj focus on the seat belt control while LL focus on the hand control of the farm arm. The rest is similar. My view is that it is too similar to say it is different. Because it is just a grip difference and the turn over technique is the same. The nuance is you have a free arm to attack. But it does not matter to my opinion as you would fight for grips while trying to put your hooks or submit from the back take.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Well to be honest, ll guys seem to be obsess with Bjj... the war is over and has been for such long time the right now is just the same.

The first excuse is one that I hear the most, since ll allows foot locks of all types from the start This this and this is not done... well, so does Bjj, hh are banned though, the straight ankle lock is not.

The second about the sit belt, Marcelo Garcia is the one that made it popular. I normally trap the far hand, and I didn’t learn i my ll seminars. And is got jack shit to do with bodybuilding, or strength, it’s even insulting what he says...so now bjj is a strength based art? Nicolas is a great grappler but as most ll guys, judging form this moronic idea he has, he’s probably way too submerged in the whole ll scene and doesn’t know much about bjj, except what he hears about it from other ll instructors, who knows where he got that from...

The one about the side control, well it really depends one the person, but I’ve felt ll guys pressure and it’s quite strong from there, it doesn’t let you breath, shoulder of justice is a standard of Bjj players, and is horrible as well, but I believe that you can really make use of shoulder of justice in the gi, the gi allows you to manipulate the body much more. No gi, sure it can be annoying as fuck, but I’m the gi is much worse... at least in my brief experience

 

[xMTDx]

Lol there are hundreds.

arnt there only like 10 luta livre schools on the planet?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Lol there are hundreds.

You train with Nico welco right?

 

[xMTDx]

Some of their school use the belt system for obvious reasons.

It is not endorsed by the entire LL community. But the one that do wear the bjj BB. You know. Which one . The BB with red tab and white stripe on each side.

Yep. Im Rft luta livre and belts are worn with gi pants and rashie or not at all. This is the Brunocilla lineage way of doing things. Carlos Brunocilla was a direct student of Mestre Tatu so it's the way it should be in my opinion. The easist way to understand the differences is to look at historical roots. Luta Livre comes from Brazilian catch and BJJ from judo. Hence pins and submissions differed but also there are similarities that have emerged due to cross training and the rise of vale tudo and mma over the decades.

As a practitioner of both the quickest summary is Luta Livre approaches things like MMA - being on top is paramount, top pressure and use of pins is vital and takedowns and leg locks are taught from day one. Ni butt scooting and berimbolo shit. Finish quickly and make them uncomfortable.

My basics in Luta Livre has helped my side control and pressure game immensely when Im training in the gi, especially against bigger people. It also goes both ways, my bjj coach is old school and whilst does lots of guard takes a mentality similar to Chris Hauter (sp?). So I get a lot from him that I can use in Luta Livre style.

Finally I also think it is important to pay credit where it is due to all the grappling arts. In my opinion you're not a bjj black belt unless you spend time in the gi. The original submission fighting art of Brazil without the gi is Luta Livre. Words can imbue power or erase it

 

[xMTDx]

You train with Nico welco right?

Used to. I started researching LL and learning from instructionals and comp videos and incorporated that into my sub grappling. Then me and a friend got him to come here and we did two one month intensives (2-3 sessions a day) which was a very good introduction and grounding in the art. I graduated to blue belt in LL and now we represent RFT Team Australia, although due to work and family commitments my long time assistant coach has now taken over the teaching role. I still try to make it in when I can and I also train bjj at our gym as it fits with work.

 

[xMTDx]

When I first started LL I was like a reformed smoker haha. Annoying and very anti gi this and that etc etc but largely have come to realise most of this was misdirected frustration at the revisionist history of the Gracies that shit on great LL and other jj players throughout history. These days the pendulum has swung back to centre and I enjoy tbe gi (now I have a team I can connect with) as much as LL style.

 

[xMTDx]

I've trained at Leopoldo Serao's Luta Livre & BJJ academy before, in Mountain View, CA. Leopoldo was a student of Eugenio Tadeu and although he is also a BJJ black belt, his primary style is luta livre. His approaches to many situations are definitely different than what many consider conventional. He also uses guillotines and many standard chokes with many variations that I've never seen before and are very effective

Yes I have heard great things about his gym and style. Flavio Santiago is another Brunocilla LL bb (where Tadeu was from) who is also a bjj bb. Love his blended style, really slick.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

When I first started LL I was like a reformed smoker haha. Annoying and very anti gi this and that etc etc but largely have come to realise most of this was misdirected frustration at the revisionist history of the Gracies that shit on great LL and other jj players throughout history. These days the pendulum has swung back to centre and I enjoy tbe gi (now I have a team I can connect with) as much as LL style.

I don’t roll on the gi anymore, have done a couple of seminars with Nico, he’s my friend, I just don’t share his taliban vision about the subject on the whole grappling thing...(actually is the same vision most ll guys have) for Nico and probably most Ll guys, there’s no Bjj no gi. If anything is done without the gi, well it’s just Luta livre... i don’t agree with his views, though he’s one of the best instructors I’ve seen or trained with, he’s a very good human being as well.

What I see for sure is that if LL doesn’t grow and get better organized, it’s a dying art. Shit I went to freaking São Paolo las, and wanted to train, I knew I would hardly find a no gi school, so I looked for a ll school, to my surprise there was 1, which was run by a blue belt and looked more like a soccer mom club than anything... vs a trillón Bjj schools... of the numbers don’t grow, now that no gi Bjj has a way bigger place, the art will be dead in less than 20 years.

Actually the best leglockers in the world are by far now Bjj practitioners...Ll has to evolve and forget about ridiculous myths they have and new ones they’ve created, hearing Nicolas Reiner say that ll doesn’t use the sit belt because it requires strength is quite silly and offensive, you don’t need much grappling experience to realize That is complete bullshit.

 

[Ryo]

Well its just kindof odd. LL claim to be from Catch wrestling yet some of the most respected lineages wear Judo belts and gi pants.

 

[nefti]

Before ll/catch was where bjj looked for leg lock guidence. Now, I would go to the DDS for leg locks that fit the bjj game.

 

[xMTDx]

Well its just kindof odd. LL claim to be from Catch wrestling yet some of the most respected lineages wear Judo belts and gi pants.

Yes because the founder of the style , Mestre Tatu, was taught and managed by a Judoka as well named Loanzi who was a student of Maeda. Tatu passed the style down to father and son Fausto and Carlos Brunocilla. Carlos introduced the gi pants and belt system. Belts go white yellow orange blue purple brown black.