BJJ and strokes

[RJ Green]

I'm pretty sure BJJ will end up taking years off my life. My knees are compromised to the point where I have trouble exercising most normal ways, much to the detriment of my cardiovascular health.

well hey, when your coronary finally blows you can at least die knowing your training partners weren't ignoring 50% of the human body

 

[Ryo]

This is why I only do heel hooks, knee bars and neck cranks... this choking shit Is too dangerous...

 

[bignog23]

Dang...this is kinda scary. Anyone got any insight on how serious this is?

Is it a .01% chance this could happen ? Or like 1% chance? Or is the jury still out and we just need to hope for the best?

 

[freakroor]

Dang...this is kinda scary. Anyone got any insight on how serious this is?

Is it a .01% chance this could happen ? Or like 1% chance? Or is the jury still out and we just need to hope for the best?

hundreds of millions of strangleholds are applied in bjj/mma/judo gyms and competions each year. Even if it causes ten strokes annually , then the odds are still less than .00001%

 

[Judoka1532]

never heard of this before

 

[Grassshoppa]

Bumping this with a recent story from last month because it continues to happen and awareness is important.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/another-bjj-athlete-has-stroke-advocates-call-out-rogan-broscience/

 

[SandaKicker]

Bumping this with a recent story from last month because it continues to happen and awareness is important.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/another-bjj-athlete-has-stroke-advocates-call-out-rogan-broscience/

Interesting;

"The primary mechanism of risk when stroke affects BJJ players seems to be chokes — particularly, intense resistance to chokes."

"However, as the choke is held, and we strain against it, the soft and elastic tissues of the blood vessels can be strained, causing tiny stresses or tears in the vessel. The most serious example of these tears is called a vascular dissection. It is these tears, as well as the blood clots that form on them to heal the tissue AND residual scar tissue that forms during the healing process, that place us at higher risk for strokes and other neurovascular conditions."

Planning on getting back into BJJ when I can but towards the end of my run I was tapping at a strong breeze.

Feeling better about that now.

It would be good to hear more about this mechanism, will the body self heal etc.

 

[TheMaster]

Hi everyone, here's some information about BJJ and strokes. This is FYI only, not a statement. If you Googled "BJJ and stroke" a few years ago there wasn't that much out there. Google "BJJ and stroke" now and there's a lot more stories out there. Chris Martin has a series of videos where he interviews BJJ guys who've suffered strokes from BJJ. They're worth watching. Not trying to deter or scare anyone. Be safe.



http://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/8660482/sean-entin-life-choke

https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/arti...tery-dissection-active-duty-soldier-due-mixed

https://www.cbssports.com/mma/news/...ced-to-retire-at-44-after-suffering-a-stroke/

Getting choked and strangled by arms or a Gi is not natural in Judo,but an acceptable compromise of the sport.

Remove the focus on throws and standing grappling and put more focus on getting chokes on the ground in BJJ and you have even more of a recipe for potential strokes.

 

[yetanother]

Getting choked and strangled by arms or a Gi is not natural in Judo,but an acceptable compromise of the sport.

Remove the focus on throws and standing grappling and put more focus on getting chokes on the ground in BJJ and you have even more of a recipe for potential strokes.

Pretty sure strokes from chokes are of least concerns compared to other injuries from judo.

 

[Whitebeltatlife]

From what I gathered, there just wasn't a financial incentive for any companies to research the effects of choking/strokes in BJJ but from the mass stories out there, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a link.
However, I personally believe it's a combination of guys who tap super late and genetics etc rather than being rampant. I think every gym has guys who are ridiculous in not tapping and so if they're already pre-disposed then it could be a recipe for disaster. That's just my assumption anyway.

 

[sb413197]

Pretty sure strokes from chokes are of least concerns compared to other injuries from judo.

Truth. I keep wanting to get into Judo, then I search for "Judo injury" on YouTube...the horror

 

[shunyata]

repetitive strain and overuse injuries are very real.

the cervical disc problems of combat sports athletes, especially high-ranking guard players, aren't anything to scoff at.

as athletes, we often confuse 'staying fit' and 'staying healthy', given that we assume the former is naturally indicative of the latter. we tell ourselves, at a certain level of proficiency, that we've accepted the risks of what we're doing and are doing it as safely as possible.

we're applying techniques designed to maim appendages and occlude bloodflow to the brain. we're doing so in a country where the lifestyle norm is significant daily job/finance/existence-related stress. add a salt-heavy diet and our booze-centric social culture, now you've got prehypertensive/hypertensive folks simulating combat by making earnest attempts to strangle one another.

we've told ourselves that under 'normal' circumstances things will be fine, but skydivers say that too. chutes rip, arteries rip.

i don't want that to be callous or dismissive of the plight that's befallen these guys. knowing and accepting the risks doesn't make things any less tragic. i can't imagine a life with impaired faculties, and i hope the folks afflicted can find some semblance of happiness, or at least solace.

you're almost guaranteed a slow end in a bed while your body and mind fail you, yet as a culture, any other death is sudden and tragic.

i say the real tragedy is the folks who are too scared of death to live. we might die every time we bow on, but to me, i'll take that over a 'safe' life where i never have.

For sure. I'm with Socrates who said that a man who never engages in any sport (and he was regarded as a skilled and active wrestler well into middle age) will no never know the glory that his body is capable of.

Plenty of people have terrible spines and knees from being inactive and overweight.


But at the same time all of the emerging data and case histories we've seen over the last few years suggest that hanging out in a chokehold that isn't putting you out but you can't break it either......................... may well be doing some vascular damage in the neck.

oh for sure. didn't even mean to insinuate as much. most Males between adolescence and fatherhood don't really consider their mortality until they're forced to reckon with it.

i just mean that, from a risk management perspective, we should at least be 'aware' right? most people's version of 'safe' is 'i will be completely comfortable doing this particular activity and the risk of injury or death is in line with my daily experience.'

where like, i think our version of safe is 'if i do this correctly and with the proper precautions i probably won't die and/or it'll feel better when it stops hurting.'

And to keep it EXTRA real, I was much more likely to die from a brain injury / bleed while doing bike and skate tricks as a youth / jumping off of shit or hiking and free climbing in areas where landslides are common than I am to suffer a cerebral vascular event due to grappling.

In fact, several times in my life doing Judo as a child saved me from fall related brain injury because ukemi took over during extreme circumstances while I was flying through the air and landing on concrete or rock.

 

[RJ Green]

helmets and ukemi are the only way i made it to 35.

 

[TheMaster]

Pretty sure strokes from chokes are of least concerns compared to other injuries from judo.

Truth. I keep wanting to get into Judo, then I search for "Judo injury" on YouTube...the horror

Denial.

Looking at how this thread has so few responses given the importance it seems to be the most common reaction from BJJ practicioners.

Of course the same is true for Judo but like I mentioned, it is a much more rounded and balanced sport as it should be. BJJ took one dimension of Judo, emphasized and got good at it and got famous for it, but now it seems there was a catch afterall, and quite a serious one.

This is not something that can just be dismissed and any grappler who trains with strangles and chokes, should be taking this research seriously.

"As the choke is held, and we strain against it, the soft and elastic tissues of the blood vessels can be strained, causing tiny stresses or tears in the vessel. The most serious example of these tears is called a vascular dissection. It is these tears, as well as the blood clots that form on them to heal the tissue AND residual scar tissue that forms during the healing process, that place us at higher risk for strokes and other neurovascular conditions"

This is serious stuff...medical knowledge is always progressing but it seems that when you struggle against it there is sometimes small damage and tiny tears to the arteries in the neck....even if they heal after which can still cause problems later. Who knows how often this happens and the conditions why some develop strokes and some do not but it seems the number of people suffering this and getting strokes is bigger than people think.

 

[yetanother]

Denial.
<[analyzed}>
<{cruzshake}><{CMPALM}>
Just close your eyes to the problem and pretend it will go away....sure.
Looking at how this thread has so few responses given the importance it seems to be the most common reaction from BJJ practicioners.

Of course the same is true for Judo but like I mentioned, it is a much more rounded and balanced sport as it should be. BJJ took one dimension of Judo, got good at it and got famous for it, but now it seems there was a catch afterall, and quite a serious one.

This is not something that can just be dismissed and any grappler who trains with strangles and chokes, should be taking this research seriously.

"As the choke is held, and we strain against it, the soft and elastic tissues of the blood vessels can be strained, causing tiny stresses or tears in the vessel. The most serious example of these tears is called a vascular dissection. It is these tears, as well as the blood clots that form on them to heal the tissue AND residual scar tissue that forms during the healing process, that place us at higher risk for strokes and other neurovascular conditions"

This is serious stuff...medical knowledge is always progressing but it seems that when you struggle against it there is sometimes small damage and tiny tears to the arteries in the neck....even if they heal after which can still cause problems later. Who knows how often this happens and the conditions why some develop strokes and some do not but it seems the number of people suffering this and getting strokes is bigger than people think.

Only a few cases over the years and they all seem to be freak accidents.

 

[winterbike]

Denial.
<[analyzed}>
<{cruzshake}><{CMPALM}>
Just close your eyes to the problem and pretend it will go away....sure.
Looking at how this thread has so few responses given the importance it seems to be the most common reaction from BJJ practicioners.

Of course the same is true for Judo but like I mentioned, it is a much more rounded and balanced sport as it should be. BJJ took one dimension of Judo, got good at it and got famous for it, but now it seems there was a catch afterall, and quite a serious one.

This is not something that can just be dismissed and any grappler who trains with strangles and chokes, should be taking this research seriously.

"As the choke is held, and we strain against it, the soft and elastic tissues of the blood vessels can be strained, causing tiny stresses or tears in the vessel. The most serious example of these tears is called a vascular dissection. It is these tears, as well as the blood clots that form on them to heal the tissue AND residual scar tissue that forms during the healing process, that place us at higher risk for strokes and other neurovascular conditions"

This is serious stuff...medical knowledge is always progressing but it seems that when you struggle against it there is sometimes small damage and tiny tears to the arteries in the neck....even if they heal after which can still cause problems later. Who knows how often this happens and the conditions why some develop strokes and some do not but it seems the number of people suffering this and getting strokes is bigger than people think.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but you're extremely stupid.

 

[TheMaster]

I'm sorry to break this to you, but you're extremely stupid.

Denial will not help, or help people who want to listen to people like you.

Only a few cases over the years and they all seem to be freak accidents.

Then you're I'll informed.
This is new research that is only emerging more recently.

One guy who is studying it reports here 85 cases, and that's just those who have come forward, others are reviewing similar incidents that happened to them and that fit the profile.

Remember the risk is for strokes and neurovascular conditions



Getting your carotid artery squeezed tightly by a piece of rope in a gi basically or forearm and struggling repeatedly against it with pressure, 3, 4, 5 or however many days a week is not good for you bottom line and potentially deadly over time.

Chokes and strangles should not be a regular or routine part of rolling or randori and they were never designed to be .
A better correct mix of more standing grappling and less rolling on the ground, or rolling without chokes much more and adding them less frequently as part of practice and implementing faster tap rules would be very sensible.

Burying your head in the sand about the issue, would not.

 

[TheMaster]

You need to overcome your gut reactions on this one.

Reaction #1

Second reaction
<{CMPALM}><{cruzshake}>
3rd reaction


Instead you should be seriously looking into this.

You don't have to quit training but you do need to modify the way you train and reduce the frequency or rolling with chokes.

There is even legit scientific research studying this now
Do yourself a serious favor and read it.

The risk is in other martial arts also, but a style that focusses so much on attacking the carotid is at particular risk.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678212/

Internal Carotid Artery Dissection in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

"Of note, the objective in martial arts, which is to kill or incapacitate, has yet to be fully tempered in transitioning to sport. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, a relatively new and fast-growing form of martial art, places emphasis on submission maneuvers. Related injuries are not common knowledge and are poorly described in the literature."

Fig 3 - Rear naked choke
Combined neck extension and head rotation (as a defensive measure) stretches the compressed internal carotid artery at its origin, causing dissection.


"We acknowledge that no sport is considered completely safe, and the martial arts especially have evolved over millennia expressly as means to kill and disable.The transition to sport is a recent phenomenon that appears to be lacking in safety standards and regulations. Arterial dissection is a potentially devastating and underrecognized problem in these healthy young enthusiasts. Awareness of the risks must be increased and better supervision implemented to prohibit prolonged or overly vigorous moves.Coaching and training staff must also caution participants against a sense of immunity, urging prompt medical attention for injuries sustained."

 

[sb413197]

Lol at the way the grappling community of sherdog and particularly BJJers are just ducking this thread.
You need to overcome your gut reactions on this one.

Reaction #1

Second reaction
<{CMPALM}><{cruzshake}>
3rd reaction
View attachment 816550

All y'all are dumb and foolish if you're not seriously looking into this.

You don't have to quite training but you do need to modify the way you train and reduce the frequency or rolling with chokes.

There is even legit scientific research studying this now
Do yourself a serious favor and read it.

The risk is in other martial arts also, but a style that focusses so much on attacking the carotid is at particular risk.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678212/

Internal Carotid Artery Dissection in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

"Of note, the objective in martial arts, which is to kill or incapacitate, has yet to be fully tempered in transitioning to sport. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, a relatively new and fast-growing form of martial art, places emphasis on submission maneuvers. Related injuries are not common knowledge and are poorly described in the literature."

Fig 3 - Rear naked choke
Combined neck extension and head rotation (as a defensive measure) stretches the compressed internal carotid artery at its origin, causing diessection.
View attachment 816556

"We acknowledge that no sport is considered completely safe, and the martial arts especially have evolved over millennia expressly as means to kill and disable.The transition to sport is a recent phenomenon that appears to be lacking in safety standards and regulations. Arterial dissection is a potentially devastating and underrecognized problem in these healthy young enthusiasts. Awareness of the risks must be increased and better supervision implemented to prohibit prolonged or overly vigorous moves.Coaching and training staff must also caution participants against a sense of immunity, urging prompt medical attention for injuries sustained."

I'll say this - I definitely intend to tap earlier from chokes now. No more gritting it out to try to escape and skirting on the edge of going out - or even letting the choke sink in super deep - if I know I'm caught, I'm caught.

 

[TheMaster]

I'll say this - I definitely intend to tap earlier from chokes now. No more gritting it out to try to escape and skirting on the edge of going out - or even letting the choke sink in super deep - if I know I'm caught, I'm caught.

And sensible you are, more so than most here it seems.

"I just found out my favourite thing that I do everyday isn't nearly as safe as I thought and could cause serious neurovascular damage short and long-term".

- "It's ok son, just pretend like you never heard about it and continue as normal everything should be fine"

Sherdog grappling lore , 2020

https://bjjasia.com/2019/10/30/er-docs-need-to-know-about-stroke-prevention-in-jiu-jitsu-athletes/


"To be honest, most of the coaches I have spoken with about this subject matter have really been unaware that anything like this could happen. Head coach of Gracie Farmington Valley BJJ, Jay Bell is one of the coaches who admitted that he was unaware that this could happen in our sport, however he has taken personal action to spread awareness to this topic after one of his students also suffered a massive accident on the mats."