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BJ Penn. Successful at Welterweight?

dmwalking

dmwalking

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What do you think? Was winning the WW title and then losing pretty much every fight after that at WW really a picture of success?

Personally, this is how I see it:

He had a good run at 155. Then he lost his title shot against Pulver. Fought Creighton at 155. Then fought Serra at 155. Fought Caol Uno to a draw at 155. Left the UFC and fought Gomi at 155. THEN after a mediocre win/draw streak got a title shot against Hughes . Won. It was awesome. I lost my mind when I watched it. But then he vacated the title. Then he had a decent run outside the UFC. Losing to Machida isn't anything to be ashamed of. But then he lost two in a row at welter. Once against a guy he already beat where he quit. Then against GSP where he quit. So he goes to 155. Puts together a good streak and gets the title. Again, pretty epic. Then fights GSP again and quits. Goes back to 155. Looks amazing under Marinovich training. Gets rid of them and loses to Frankie twice. Knocks out an old washed up Hughes. But at that point, that wasn't really impressive. Then BJ goes on to never win another welterweight fight again. Ever again. Not only does he lose, he gets embarrassed. He looked great against Fitch for 2 rounds then quit in the 3rd. Goes on to lose against a 145 Frankie. Probably the most embarrassing loss he's ever had.

Personally, I see his career outside of 155 as a straight up embarrassment.

Am I being too harsh?
 
He won the title against the best WW ever (at the time), and arguably beat GSP first time around. If that isn't successful, then 95% of guys that have fought in the UFC aren't successful.
 
He won the title at welterweight, that's kinda the pinnacle of winning. Also, he only lost to people who had either won or challenged for the title.
 
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I mean in the UFC he's what: 2-5-1 at 170.

He was a good matchup for Hughes but he didn't beat anyone else and he did lose to GSP the first time.
 
Are you being too harsh? Yes.

Was BJ 'successful' at WW? No.

Not other than that one very impressive victory against Hughes at the very top of his game and the very good showing against a prime GSP in their first fight... which he legit lost... and the draw against Fitch.
 
dmwalking said:


What do you think? Was winning the WW title and then losing pretty much every fight after that at WW really a picture of success?

Personally, this is how I see it:

He had a good run at 155. Then he lost his title shot against Pulver. Fought Creighton at 155. Then fought Serra at 155. Fought Caol Uno to a draw at 155. Left the UFC and fought Gomi at 155. THEN after a mediocre win/draw streak got a title shot against Hughes . Won. It was awesome. I lost my mind when I watched it. But then he vacated the title. Then he had a decent run outside the UFC. Losing to Machida isn't anything to be ashamed of. But then he lost two in a row at welter. Once against a guy he already beat where he quit. Then against GSP where he quit. So he goes to 155. Puts together a good streak and gets the title. Again, pretty epic. Then fights GSP again and quits. Goes back to 155. Looks amazing under Marinovich training. Gets rid of them and loses to Frankie twice. Knocks out an old washed up Hughes. But at that point, that wasn't really impressive. Then BJ goes on to never win another welterweight fight again. Ever again. Not only does he lose, he gets embarrassed. He looked great against Fitch for 2 rounds then quit in the 3rd. Goes on to lose against a 145 Frankie. Probably the most embarrassing loss he's ever had.

Personally, I see his career outside of 155 as a straight up embarrassment.

Am I being too harsh?
Click to expand...

BJ beating Hughes twice at 170 makes it all a success IMO
 
Bj was unquestionably successful at welterweight

We are now seeing a push from Conor fanatics to rewrite history after they realized Conor's latest propaganda campaign "forgot about dre"
 
dmwalking said:


What do you think? Was winning the WW title and then losing pretty much every fight after that at WW really a picture of success?

Personally, this is how I see it:

He had a good run at 155. Then he lost his title shot against Pulver. Fought Creighton at 155. Then fought Serra at 155. Fought Caol Uno to a draw at 155. Left the UFC and fought Gomi at 155. THEN after a mediocre win/draw streak got a title shot against Hughes . Won. It was awesome. I lost my mind when I watched it. But then he vacated the title. Then he had a decent run outside the UFC. Losing to Machida isn't anything to be ashamed of. But then he lost two in a row at welter. Once against a guy he already beat where he quit. Then against GSP where he quit. So he goes to 155. Puts together a good streak and gets the title. Again, pretty epic. Then fights GSP again and quits. Goes back to 155. Looks amazing under Marinovich training. Gets rid of them and loses to Frankie twice. Knocks out an old washed up Hughes. But at that point, that wasn't really impressive. Then BJ goes on to never win another welterweight fight again. Ever again. Not only does he lose, he gets embarrassed. He looked great against Fitch for 2 rounds then quit in the 3rd. Goes on to lose against a 145 Frankie. Probably the most embarrassing loss he's ever had.

Personally, I see his career outside of 155 as a straight up embarrassment.

Am I being too harsh?
Click to expand...

That was the early days of the ww division, it's a lot more competitive now. Love bj but he wouldn't be able to hang at 170 these days.
 
It is a kind of tricky question.

He beat Hughes twice, once for the title. That is unquestionably successful and incredibly impressive. Prime BJ Penn was an absolute monster.

However, the rest of his WW run was not very impressive. He got absolutely thrashed by Nick, Rory, GSP and Fitch (in the third round)... But losing to those guys is hardly a knock against a fighter. Those are some of the best WWs of all time.

It's kind of hard to tell, really, because he never fought lesser WW competition. I have no doubt that he would've been able to pick up more wins at WW had he fought some lower ranked guys... But he didn't fight those guys.

I'd say he had a very impressive career. But ultimately he was a LW, and in many ways he was wasted potential. Imagine if BJ had stayed with the Marinovich brothers, or at least spent his career at a legit training camp. He could've been in the GOAT discussion, instead of "just" being a LW great.
 
12 years ago an insanely talented fighter won a title against a guy for which he had an extremely favorable matchup.

IT ain't 12 years ago.

BJ went 2-5-1 at WW

Weight classes exist for a damn good reason.

BJ Penn is a legend and a. Inspiration for having "the warrior spirit" to go up but he was also fortunate to have the perfect circumstances and a window of opportunity which existed because MMA was in a developmental state.

Good for him for capitalizing on it. He is a legend for life because of it, but today's MMA and yesterday's MMA are so unbelievably differ that comparison is futile.

Going up in weight and winning a title now would be infinitely harder, no disrespect to Hughes, he was a stud and legit too 5 maybe even top 2-3 p4p then, but even so BJ couldn't really replicate the success at a high level and got KILLED more often than not against top WWs (which is all he fought)

Even an all time great who is famous specifically for going up to win the belt has a horrible overall record at WW and most of the losses were brutal and humbling.

Also of note, a significant portion of his LW success happened after humbling losses at WW. (Let's not ignore the timing of this discussion which we all know is not by coincidence)
 
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BJ could have probably been the LW GOAT had he actually concentrated his career there. He could have fought in Pride at 160 during the time the UFC got rid of the LW division and then moved back to 155 lbs once the division was reinstated. He had success at WW exactly once, when he beat Hughes the first time. That win is never called into question, but Hughes got tapped with 30 seconds left after committing a fatal tactical mistake (he probably could have lasted the round had he not grabbed BJ's foot....which was an inexcusable error even for 2004 wrestler-turned-submission-artist level grappling). Saying that he was successful at WW after that means omitting his glaring short comings at that weight, mainly cardio and lack of size.
 
Bj deserves a lot of respect for doing what he did at ww. But the game has changed and he got older. He would suffer some real beat downs at ww. If you can't beat Frankie standing up don't jump to ww.
 
Winning the WW title from prime Hughes is no small feat, but he never defended the title, and he lost to every top fighter he faced at WW. The exception being the draw against Fitch. BJ was an incredibly skilled fighter. He had great boxing, great tdd, underrated take downs, and when he got his opponent on the mat, it was only a matter of time before they were mounted and forced to give up their back. His BJJ from top position was unbelievable. However, even with all those tools, he was still a LW fighting WW's, who also happened to be very skilled as well.

BJ Penn's career should serve as a cautionary tale for highly skilled fighters in lower weight classes. If you don't have the size to go along with the skill, stay in your division.
 
If Penn fought on the regional circuit and wasn't fighting top ranked lightweights three fights in, which he KO'ed, He'd probably have like 15 more wins and all the fight finder haters would be blowing him daily.
 
He beat Renzo and Rodrigo Gracie at Middle Weight.
 
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