Economy Bitcoin Doubters, Come Eat Your Crow

[Lead]

It has plenty of use as a currency. You just don't go to the right places where it's being used.

Do you use that coin to buy groceries or have your car fixed? Even if it were at the .25? I think not. It is no longer used the way a currency is usually used. It's more collection item or investment at that point than it is currency.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Do you use that coin to buy groceries or have your car fixed? Even if it were at the .25? I think not. It is no longer used the way a currency is usually used. It's more collection item or investment at that point than it is currency.

Yeah, it seems weird that people who think of Bitcoin as a currency are celebrating speculation-based price increases.

 

[Lead]

Yeah, it seems weird that people who think of Bitcoin as a currency are celebrating speculation-based price increases.

A currency shouldn't be seen as an investment or purposely be deflationary. Some of the posts really show they are looking at it as a stock. The big differennce being there are actual assets and worth behind a stock along with some speculation. With bitcoin, it is just the speculation.

 

[Lead]

You've just described every currency in existance... minus Au and Ag.

Yes a currency dies with its government. That doesn't make this one superior. By being inherently deflationary, it would cripple an economy as a stand alone currency. A good currency stays stable and inflates at a stable low rate. Bitcoin seems incapable in theory of doing this. If it proves me wrong on any of these things in the future, I'd evaluate again but I don't think it will

 

[Greoric]

Yes a currency dies with its government. That doesn't make this one superior. By being inherently deflationary, it would cripple an economy as a stand alone currency. A good currency stays stable and inflates at a stable low rate. Bitcoin seems incapable in theory of doing this. If it proves me wrong on any of these things in the future, I'd evaluate again but I don't think it will

Deflationary pressure isn't crippling to an economy my man. In fact, when there's a steady deflationary pressure its extremely beneficial because it promotes deferred gratification and legitimate investment, but most importantly an increase in purchasing power over time.

And like I mentioned earlier, a slow inflation in comparison just promotes speculation, which promotes distortions, which promotes bubbles, which cause crashes, which cause overreactions by the powers that be.

 

[P4p Islam]

Even late comer miners like me are in decent profit.

So how do you cash this shit out? Do they mail you a check willingly?

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

So how do you cash this shit out? Do they mail you a check willingly?

You convert it to cash through your bitcoin bank which is tied to your checking account.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Do you use that coin to buy groceries or have your car fixed? Even if it were at the .25? I think not. It is no longer used the way a currency is usually used. It's more collection item or investment at that point than it is currency.

https://99bitcoins.com/who-accepts-bitcoins-payment-companies-stores-take-bitcoins/

List of Companies Who Accepts Bitcoins as Payment!
Many companies are accepting bitcoins, many are not. Here is a list of the biggest (and smaller) names who accepts bitcoins as a currency.

Spoiler

• WordPress.com – An online company that allows user to create free blogs
• Overstock.com – A company that sells big ticket items at lower prices due to overstocking
• Subway – Eat fresh
• Microsoft – Users can buy content with Bitcoin on Xbox and Windows store
• Reddit – You can buy premium features there with bitcoins
• Virgin Galactic – Richard Branson company that includes Virgin Mobile and Virgin Airline
• OkCupid – Online dating site
• Tigerdirect – Major electronic online retailer
• Namecheap – Domain name registrar
• CheapAir.com – Travel booking site for airline tickets, car rentals, hotels
• Expedia.com – Online travel booking agency
• Gyft – Buy giftcards using Bitcoin
• Newegg.com – Online electronics retailer now uses bitpay to accept bitcoin as payment
• 1-800-FLOWERS.COM – United States based online floral and gift retailer and distributor
• Fiverr.com – Get almost anything done for $5
• Dell – American privately owned multinational computer technology company
• Wikipedia – The Free Encyclopedia with 4 570 000+ article
• Steam – Desktop gaming platform
• The Internet Archive – web documatation company
• Bitcoin.Travel – a travel site that provides accommodation, apartments, attractions, bars, and beauty salons around the world
• Pembury Tavern – A pub in London, England
• Old Fitzroy – A pub in Sydney, Australia
• The Pink Cow – A diner in Tokyo, Japan
• The Pirate Bay – BitTorrent directories
• Zynga – Mobile gaming
• Tesla – The car company
• 4Chan.org – For premium services
• EZTV – Torrents TV shows provider
• Mega.co.nz – The new venture started by the former owner of MegaUpload Kim Dotcom
• Lumfile – Free cloud base file server – pay for premium services
• Etsy Vendors – 93 of them
• PizzaForCoins.com – Domino’s Pizza signed up – pay for their pizza with bitcons
• Whole Foods – Organic food store (by purchasing gift card from Gyft)
• Bitcoincoffee.com – Buy your favorite coffee online
• Grass Hill Alpacas – A local farm in Haydenville, MA
• Jeffersons Store – A street wear clothing store in Bergenfield, N.J
• Helen’s Pizza – Jersey City, N.J., you can get a slice of pizza for 0.00339 bitcoin by pointing your phone at a sign next to the cash register
• A Class Limousine – Pick you up and drop you off at Newark (N.J.) Airport
• Seoclerks.com – Get SEO work done on your site cheap
• Mint.com – Mint pulls all your financial accounts into one place. Set a budget, track your goals and do more
• Fancy.com – Discover amazing stuff, collect the things you love, buy it all in one place (Source: Fancy)
• Bloomberg.com – Online newspaper
• Humblebundle.com – Indie game site
• BigFishGames.com – Games for PC, Mac and Smartphones (iPhone, Android, Windows)
• Suntimes.com – Chicago based online newspaper
• San Jose Earthquakes – San Jose California Professional Soccer Team (MLS)
• Square – Payment processor that help small businesses accept credit cards using iPhone, Android or iPad
• Crowdtilt.com – The fastest and easiest way to pool funds with family and friends (Source: crowdtilt)
• Lumfile – Server company that offers free cloud-based servers
• Museum of the Coastal Bend – 2200 East Red River Street, Victoria, Texas 77901, USA
• Home Depot – Office supplies store
• Kmart – Retail products store
• Sears – Clothing and household products, electronic store
• Gap, GameStop and JC Penney – have to use eGifter.com
• Etsy Vendors – Original art and Jewelry creations
• Fight for the Future – Leading organization finding for Internet freedom
• i-Pmart (ipmart.com.my) – A Malaysian online mobile phone and electronic parts retailer
• curryupnow.com – A total of 12 restaurants on the list of restaurants accept bitcoins in San Francisco Bay Area
• Dish Network – An American direct-broadcast satellite service provider
• The Libertarian Party – United States political party
• Yacht-base.com – Croatian yacht charter company
• Euro Pacific – A major precious metal dealer
• CEX – The trade-in chain has a shop in Glasgow, Scotland that accepts bitcoin
• Straub Auto Repairs – 477 Warburton Ave, Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 – (914) 478-1177
• PSP Mollie – Dutch Payment Service
• Intuit – an American software company that develops financial and tax preparation software and related services for small businesses, accountants and individuals.
• ShopJoy – An Australian online retailer that sells novelty and unique gifts
• Lv.net – Las Vegas high speed internet services
• ExpressVPN.com – High speed, ultra secure VPN network
• Grooveshark – Online music streaming service based in the United States
• Braintree – Well known payments processor
• MIT Coop Store – Massachusetts Institute of Technology student bookstore
• SimplePay – Nigeria’s most popular web and mobile-based wallet service
• SFU bookstore – Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada
• State Republican Party – First State Republican Party to accept bitcoin donations (http://www.lagop.com/bitcoin-donate)
• mspinc.com – Respiratory medical equipment supplies store
• Shopify.com – An online store that allows anyone to sell their products
• Famsa – Mexico’s biggest retailer
• Naughty America – Adult entertainment provider
• Mexico’s Universidad de las Américas Puebla – A major university in Mexico
• LOT Polish Airlines – A worldwide airline based in Poland
• MovieTickets.com – Online movie ticket exchange/retailer
• Dream Lover – Online relationship service
• Lionsgate Films – The production studio behind titles such as The Hunger Games and The Day After Tomorrow
• Rakutan – A Japanese e-commerce giant
• Badoo – Online dating network
• RE/MAX London – UK-based franchisee of the global real estate network
• T-Mobile Poland – T-Mobile’s Poland-based mobile phone top-up company
• Stripe – San Francisco-based payments company
• WebJet – Online travel agency
• Green Man Gaming – Popular digital game reseller
• Save the Children – Global charity organization
• NCR Silver – Point of sales systems
• One Shot Hotels – Spanish hotel chain
• Coupa Café in Palo Alto
  
  
• PureVPN – VPN provider
• That’s my face – create action figures
• Foodler – North American restaurant delivery company
• Amagi Metals – Precious metal furnisher

 

[Lead]

Deflationary pressure isn't crippling to an economy my man. In fact, when there's a steady deflationary pressure its extremely beneficial because it promotes deferred gratification and legitimate investment, but most importantly an increase in purchasing power over time.

And like I mentioned earlier, a slow inflation in comparison just promotes speculation, which promotes distortions, which promotes bubbles, which cause crashes, which cause overreactions by the powers that be.

A deflationary currency is a bad thing to the economy. The majority would agree on that. It encourages people to hoard money rather than use it on real productive investments. A deflationary one makes the currency the investment. So you are encouraged to hold your cash, businesses sell less goods and services, lay off workers who then don't have money to spend anymore and the cycle continues.

 

[Lead]

https://99bitcoins.com/who-accepts-bitcoins-payment-companies-stores-take-bitcoins/

Spoiler

• WordPress.com – An online company that allows user to create free blogs
• Overstock.com – A company that sells big ticket items at lower prices due to overstocking
• Subway – Eat fresh
• Microsoft – Users can buy content with Bitcoin on Xbox and Windows store
• Reddit – You can buy premium features there with bitcoins
• Virgin Galactic – Richard Branson company that includes Virgin Mobile and Virgin Airline
• OkCupid – Online dating site
• Tigerdirect – Major electronic online retailer
• Namecheap – Domain name registrar
• CheapAir.com – Travel booking site for airline tickets, car rentals, hotels
• Expedia.com – Online travel booking agency
• Gyft – Buy giftcards using Bitcoin
• Newegg.com – Online electronics retailer now uses bitpay to accept bitcoin as payment
• 1-800-FLOWERS.COM – United States based online floral and gift retailer and distributor
• Fiverr.com – Get almost anything done for $5
• Dell – American privately owned multinational computer technology company
• Wikipedia – The Free Encyclopedia with 4 570 000+ article
• Steam – Desktop gaming platform
• The Internet Archive – web documatation company
• Bitcoin.Travel – a travel site that provides accommodation, apartments, attractions, bars, and beauty salons around the world
• Pembury Tavern – A pub in London, England
• Old Fitzroy – A pub in Sydney, Australia
• The Pink Cow – A diner in Tokyo, Japan
• The Pirate Bay – BitTorrent directories
• Zynga – Mobile gaming
• Tesla – The car company
• 4Chan.org – For premium services
• EZTV – Torrents TV shows provider
• Mega.co.nz – The new venture started by the former owner of MegaUpload Kim Dotcom
• Lumfile – Free cloud base file server – pay for premium services
• Etsy Vendors – 93 of them
• PizzaForCoins.com – Domino’s Pizza signed up – pay for their pizza with bitcons
• Whole Foods – Organic food store (by purchasing gift card from Gyft)
• Bitcoincoffee.com – Buy your favorite coffee online
• Grass Hill Alpacas – A local farm in Haydenville, MA
• Jeffersons Store – A street wear clothing store in Bergenfield, N.J
• Helen’s Pizza – Jersey City, N.J., you can get a slice of pizza for 0.00339 bitcoin by pointing your phone at a sign next to the cash register
• A Class Limousine – Pick you up and drop you off at Newark (N.J.) Airport
• Seoclerks.com – Get SEO work done on your site cheap
• Mint.com – Mint pulls all your financial accounts into one place. Set a budget, track your goals and do more
• Fancy.com – Discover amazing stuff, collect the things you love, buy it all in one place (Source: Fancy)
• Bloomberg.com – Online newspaper
• Humblebundle.com – Indie game site
• BigFishGames.com – Games for PC, Mac and Smartphones (iPhone, Android, Windows)
• Suntimes.com – Chicago based online newspaper
• San Jose Earthquakes – San Jose California Professional Soccer Team (MLS)
• Square – Payment processor that help small businesses accept credit cards using iPhone, Android or iPad
• Crowdtilt.com – The fastest and easiest way to pool funds with family and friends (Source: crowdtilt)
• Lumfile – Server company that offers free cloud-based servers
• Museum of the Coastal Bend – 2200 East Red River Street, Victoria, Texas 77901, USA
• Home Depot – Office supplies store
• Kmart – Retail products store
• Sears – Clothing and household products, electronic store
• Gap, GameStop and JC Penney – have to use eGifter.com
• Etsy Vendors – Original art and Jewelry creations
• Fight for the Future – Leading organization finding for Internet freedom
• i-Pmart (ipmart.com.my) – A Malaysian online mobile phone and electronic parts retailer
• curryupnow.com – A total of 12 restaurants on the list of restaurants accept bitcoins in San Francisco Bay Area
• Dish Network – An American direct-broadcast satellite service provider
• The Libertarian Party – United States political party
• Yacht-base.com – Croatian yacht charter company
• Euro Pacific – A major precious metal dealer
• CEX – The trade-in chain has a shop in Glasgow, Scotland that accepts bitcoin
• Straub Auto Repairs – 477 Warburton Ave, Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 – (914) 478-1177
• PSP Mollie – Dutch Payment Service
• Intuit – an American software company that develops financial and tax preparation software and related services for small businesses, accountants and individuals.
• ShopJoy – An Australian online retailer that sells novelty and unique gifts
• Lv.net – Las Vegas high speed internet services
• ExpressVPN.com – High speed, ultra secure VPN network
• Grooveshark – Online music streaming service based in the United States
• Braintree – Well known payments processor
• MIT Coop Store – Massachusetts Institute of Technology student bookstore
• SimplePay – Nigeria’s most popular web and mobile-based wallet service
• SFU bookstore – Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada
• State Republican Party – First State Republican Party to accept bitcoin donations (http://www.lagop.com/bitcoin-donate)
• mspinc.com – Respiratory medical equipment supplies store
• Shopify.com – An online store that allows anyone to sell their products
• Famsa – Mexico’s biggest retailer
• Naughty America – Adult entertainment provider
• Mexico’s Universidad de las Américas Puebla – A major university in Mexico
• LOT Polish Airlines – A worldwide airline based in Poland
• MovieTickets.com – Online movie ticket exchange/retailer
• Dream Lover – Online relationship service
• Lionsgate Films – The production studio behind titles such as The Hunger Games and The Day After Tomorrow
• Rakutan – A Japanese e-commerce giant
• Badoo – Online dating network
• RE/MAX London – UK-based franchisee of the global real estate network
• T-Mobile Poland – T-Mobile’s Poland-based mobile phone top-up company
• Stripe – San Francisco-based payments company
• WebJet – Online travel agency
• Green Man Gaming – Popular digital game reseller
• Save the Children – Global charity organization
• NCR Silver – Point of sales systems
• One Shot Hotels – Spanish hotel chain
• Coupa Café in Palo Alto
  
  
• PureVPN – VPN provider
• That’s my face – create action figures
• Foodler – North American restaurant delivery company
• Amagi Metals – Precious metal furnisher

I'd like to know how much they get from people.

 

[Greoric]

A deflationary currency is a bad thing to the economy. The majority would agree on that. It encourages people to hoard money rather than use it on real productive investments. A deflationary one makes the currency the investment. So you are encouraged to hold your cash, businesses sell less goods and services, lay off workers who then don't have money to spend anymore and the cycle continues.

The majority has nothing to do with it mate.

Where do people put money when they hoard it? Their mattress?

 

[Lead]

The majority has nothing to do with it mate.

Where do people put money when they hoard it? Their mattress?

Acknowledge the rest of the post. You are right on that comment. Popularity doesn't confirm validity.

Does it matter where they hold it? Are you just mocking my use of a word. You can interchange it with hold onto and it's the same idea/ problem.

 

[Greoric]

Acknowledge the rest of the post. You are right on that comment. Popularity doesn't confirm validity.

Does it matter where they hold it? Are you just mocking my use of a word. You can interchange it with hold onto and it's the same idea/ problem.

Noted, that's a threshold most people aren't able to appreciate out from the start.

I am acknowledging the rest of the post though, but I've found it better that people walk through the logic themselves. It matters very much how they hold it. Moving forward, its pretty reasonable to accept that most people don't have their holdings under the mattress, right? They're in the banks or other investments aren't they?

 

[Lead]

Noted, that's a threshold most people aren't able to appreciate out from the start.

I am acknowledging the rest of the post though, but I've found it better that people walk through the logic themselves. It matters very much how they hold it. Moving forward, its pretty reasonable to accept that most people don't have their holdings under the mattress, right? They're in the banks or other investments aren't they?

Yes? That's my point though. They are incentivized to do things with the currency rather than be rewarded by doing nothing. For example, they can put it into a investment vehicle and get interest. If you just let it sit by itself, you lose value over time. Not a massive amount but it's a far better thing to have that nudge to use it then to think do nothing = profit

 

[Greoric]

Yes? That's my point though. They are incentivized to do things with the currency rather than be rewarded by doing nothing. For example, they can put it into a investment vehicle and get interest. If you just let it sit by itself, you lose value over time. Not a massive amount but it's a far better thing to have that nudge to use it then to think do nothing = profit

On second thought, you're a smart dude and genuine so I won't try to hold your hand...

The currency they're saving is representative of the additional goods and services they produced to earn it. When they're saving or investing that money, they're under-consuming real legitimate resources that are being made available for productive activities elsewhere instead of just immediate consumption. Steady deflationary pressures encourage that.

But that's precisely what inflation discourages. Inflation for obvious reasons encourages consumption. Economies grow precisely because resources aren't being consumed. Production bases expand because more people are deferring their gratification for a later date as opposed to spending more as soon as they earn it.

 

[xcvbn]

A currency shouldn't be seen as an investment or purposely be deflationary. Some of the posts really show they are looking at it as a stock. The big different being there are actual assets and worth behind a stock along with some speculation. With bitcoin, it is just the speculation.

You don't see any worth in $0.10 worldwide wiring fees? You literally haven't read anything beyond what you've wanted to read on this subject, have you?

I think if you gave as much of a shit about this topic as being a condescending douchebag you'd have learned what bitcoin is and the difference between using it as a currency vs fiat in terms of deflation, why it's not "just speculation", and that there is cryptographic technology that rewards holding coins through proof of stake. Among many other uses and purposes.

But nah, you're just in here spewing bullshit.

 

[Lead]

On second thought, you're a smart dude and genuine so I won't try to hold your hand...

The currency they're saving is representative of the additional goods and services they produced to earn it. When they're saving or investing that money, they're under-consuming real legitimate resources that are being made available for productive activities elsewhere instead of just immediate consumption. Steady deflationary pressures encourage that.

Can you clarify this part further. I don't want to just talk past you if I'm off on your point

But that's precisely what inflation discourages. Inflation for obvious reasons encourages consumption. Economies grow precisely because resources aren't being consumed. Production bases expand because more people are deferring their gratification for a later date as opposed to spending more as soon as they earn it.

I am under the assumption that economic growth can be done from either population growth or increased production. When transactions and business comes to a slow, wouldn't it kill the potential capacity an economy has? For example, less people buy a fridge in order to hold onto their money that deflates. The factories making the fridges ultimately cut back their workforce and even shut down a plant. The plant no longer is recoverable after a year or two out of service. Imo, that would be a loss of resources for an economy. A fridge may be an awful example but I guess it can work in the sense it adds value to a household and to a standard of living. The money holding / buying a fridge balance may be off though for an example.

I could understand your view in a longer timeframe. We know resources are finite and want to use them in the most efficient means. Right now, I don't think the world really experiences that hard of a push about things being finite. In time, I think it will be a far larger reality which will mean economies will be less about constant growth and consumption and more about sustainability and conservation. You almost will want to encourage people to hold back and reward them for it. It's hard to say how likely that will be however by the time we reach that stage as there are a lot of unforeseeable reasons the system could do something entirely different.

 

[Lead]

You don't see any worth in $0.10 worldwide wiring fees? You literally haven't read anything beyond what you've wanted to read on this subject, have you?

I haven't really attacked anyone talking about anonymity, security or the low transaction costs because they are / can be good things. I just weigh it against what I see as a fundamental flaw in it being used as a currency. Also, I think the wiring fees are possible without a currency like bitcoin. A government currency can get to this point the more they push against physical cash. In time, the banking industry and it's services will need to be rethought out

I think if you gave as much of a shit about this topic as being a condescending douchebag you'd have learned what bitcoin is and the difference between using it as a currency vs fiat in terms of deflation, why it's not "just speculation", and that there is cryptographic technology that rewards holding coins through proof of stake. Among many other uses and purposes.

But nah, you're just in here spewing bullshit.

I think you are making this a bit personal and I don't know why. I don't remember attacking you in this thread and I don't want you to take my criticism against the idea as some type of hit at you. You've mostly been posting about the technological aspect of bitcoin (from what I've seen on my phone today when I could). That isn't my problem with it. I am challenging that it doesn't serve well doing what a currency should normally do and some of it's users (not you necessarily) are mistakenly seeing it the same way they see a stock which isn't very comparable at all and fairly dangerous imo. Playing around with the idea of bitcoin or any of those currencies is a fun conversation to have and there isn't any argument from me that with the right rules behind a system, it could work. With bitcoin however, I don't think the rules it abides by will be what succeeds in the long run.

 

[Greoric]

Can you clarify this part further. I don't want to just talk past you if I'm off on your point

I am under the assumption that economic growth can be done from either population growth or increased production. When transactions and business comes to a slow, wouldn't it kill the potential capacity an economy has? For example, less people buy a fridge in order to hold onto their money that deflates. The factories making the fridges ultimately cut back their workforce and even shut down a plant. The plant no longer is recoverable after a year or two out of service. Imo, that would be a loss of resources for an economy. A fridge may be an awful example but I guess it can work in the sense it adds value to a household and to a standard of living. The money holding / buying a fridge balance may be off though for an example.

I could understand your view in a longer timeframe. We know resources are finite and want to use them in the most efficient means. Right now, I don't think the world really experiences that hard of a push about things being finite. In time, I think it will be a far larger reality which will mean economies will be less about constant growth and consumption and more about sustainability and conservation. You almost will want to encourage people to hold back and reward them for it. It's hard to say how likely that will be however by the time we reach that stage as there are a lot of unforeseeable reasons the system could do something entirely different.

Your fridge example is actually perfect. You're absolutely right that when we're in a situation where people decide to defer more of their consumption, like deciding not to spend money on a new refrigerator, the businesses producing those items downsize their production and liquidate their labor and capital. That's a better example of unprecedented deflation and ultimately a recession.

Starting from a position where that under-consuming behavior has been anticipated by entrepreneurs, the allocation of late stage products like refrigerators TVs, cars, or anything designed to be for end user consumption is less already. There just isn't a profit margin available in those spaces with an already reduced consumer base for more production of those goods.

However! The allocation of the capital stock representative of those savings utilized as credit by entrepreneurs is directed into the middle and early stages of production, i.e. R&D, mining, etc. All of that of course allows for a greater amount of late products like TVs, fridges, or whatever else later on when people don't want to defer their income any longer. Thus a greater purchasing power with the same unit of currency with a larger stock of goods and services available!

 

[jmag]