Movies AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR v.11

[minute bull]

Doctor Strange was so confused by their relationship.

I've seen fourteen million six hundred and five scenarios and they all skeeve me out.

 

[taurus]

Everyone has their own agenda, the point is it's not law that all others must abide by or be criminals

In the Sokovia thing, it kind of was. Black or white.

was he right about Bucky though? Was he right to stand against the Sokovia accords?(remember that even War Machine now wishes he never signed them). Also of course its in the spirit of Captain America.... its a concept from the comics and Cap was against it in them also. He believes in freedom, and that isnt freedom in his eyes.

also are you really going to mention AoU? you know the movie where Tony unleashes an advanced AI on the world, that almost leads to the entire world being destroyed.

no matter what happens in the MCU..... Cap>>>Iron Man, and he always will be

I'm not debating whether it's in the spirit of the character from the comics. Yes, the main point in comic iteration and the MCU iteration is the same. I'm debating the way it was done, give the entire context and the other actions done by Cap.

In the end, he was right about Bucky. He was wrong on a number of things. He was wrong on Tony, assessing him as a nobody but a human in an armor (which Tony counter-argumented by saving the entire New York City from getting nuked). He was against creating Vision, which kinda turned out OK (otherwise entire Earth population would be screwed). He was wrong in not destroying the mind stone, which wiped out HALF THE GALAXY. He was wrong on so many levels, but I don't need to go further, those three examples are more than enough.

And in the context of MCU, Iron Man did far more than Cap America and you know it. *tips hat

 

[Deleted member 110072]

was he right about Bucky though? Was he right to stand against the Sokovia accords?(remember that even War Machine now wishes he never signed them). Also of course its in the spirit of Captain America.... its a concept from the comics and Cap was against it in them also. He believes in freedom, and that isnt freedom in his eyes.

also are you really going to mention AoU? you know the movie where Tony unleashes an advanced AI on the world, that almost leads to the entire world being destroyed.

no matter what happens in the MCU..... Cap>>>Iron Man, and he always will be

Generally yes I'd agree although this film is obviously asking the question and indeed it surely makes sense for there always to be some debate doesn't there? if the plot of Civil War was clearly CaP = Right, Stark = Wrong then it would make for pretty boring cinema.

This film I think was clearly intended to be the ultimate question of Cap's moral code though which will likely feed into the sequel with him being a bigger focus.

 

[LilMountain]

In the Sokovia thing, it kind of was. Black or white.

Well, yes, and that was his opposition to it, being codified by governments with agendas rather than the heroes following more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

In the Sokovia thing, it kind of was. Black or white.



I'm not debating whether it's in the spirit of the character from the comics. Yes, the main point in comic iteration and the MCU iteration is the same. I'm debating the way it was done, give the entire context and the other actions done by Cap.

In the end, he was right about Bucky. He was wrong on a number of things. He was wrong on Tony, assessing him as a nobody but a human in an armor (which Tony counter-argumented by saving the entire New York City from getting nuked). He was against creating Vision, which kinda turned out OK (otherwise entire Earth population would be screwed). He was wrong in not destroying the mind stone, which wiped out HALF THE GALAXY. He was wrong on so many levels, but I don't need to go further, those three examples are more than enough.

and why did he not want to create vision? because the last thing Tony and Bruce created was trying to destroy the world as they were doing it. He wasnt wrong in not destroying the mind stone, as that involved just sacrificing a friend without a fight. Cap in any media wouldnt do that.

Tony has been directly responsible for most of the shit that has went wrong so far, Ultron= Tony, handing the time stone to Thanos by flying short handed to his planet. Yet you just gloss over Tony's faults to shit on Cap?

 

[taurus]

Well, yes, and that was his opposition to it, being codified by governments with agendas rather than the heroes following more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

I understand his position. But who's to say heroes' guidelines are good? The same heroes that wrote it? If Cap doesn't believe governmental laws are good bcs they are written by those same governments, how can he be so full of himself and say "I wrote this good, hence it's good". I consider it double standards.

That's why i liked that scene, bcs all sides brought up good points, but in the end, the decision has to be made, and IMO it's black or white, there is no middle ground.

E.g. - Both Tony and Banner feel like crap due to Hulk rampaging throughout the city in AoU. But Tony at least tried to steer the fight away from the city. Cap runs after Brumlow, ends up killing dozens of people in doing so, meh, i don't need to be put in check. Where were the guidelines there?

and why did he not want to create vision? because the last thing Tony and Bruce created was trying to destroy the world as they were doing it. He wasnt wrong in not destroying the mind stone, as that involved just sacrificing a friend without a fight. Cap in any media wouldnt do that.

Tony has been directly responsible for most of the shit that has went wrong so far, Ultron= Tony, handing the time stone to Thanos by flying short handed to his planet. Yet you just gloss over Tony's faults to shit on Cap?

Yes, i know the reason Cap didn't want it, i just stipulated he was wrong on not wanting to create Vision, which is a fact.

As far as Tony's faults, I don't gloss over them, and neither does Tony. This is the part where it's not just which character i like the most, it's the part of which character grew the most during the Avengers run. And that's undoubtedly Tony. Tony feels grief, depression, remorse, for all the wrongs he did. He ponders about every decision for days, SOLELY bcs he's made so many bad decisions. I didn't get the notion Cap does the same.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

and why did he not want to create vision? because the last thing Tony and Bruce created was trying to destroy the world as they were doing it. He wasnt wrong in not destroying the mind stone, as that involved just sacrificing a friend without a fight. Cap in any media wouldnt do that.

Tony has been directly responsible for most of the shit that has went wrong so far, Ultron= Tony, handing the time stone to Thanos by flying short handed to his planet. Yet you just gloss over Tony's faults to shit on Cap?

I think its a little ironic though that Tony actually started off much closer to Cap in aims when it came to not being tied down to anyone else's authority albeit somewhat driven by more selfish motives.

I actually think he's become a more interesting and idneed more likeble character post first Avengers film, his decisions have gotten worse as his motivation has arguably become more moral and less driven by arrogance.

The difference I spose you could argue is Stark remains an individualist, if he experiences something negative like Newyork or the bereaved mother he takes personal action to prevent it happening again without considering wider morals.

 

[LilMountain]

I understand his position. But who's to say heroes' guidelines are good? The same heroes that wrote it? If Cap doesn't believe governmental laws are good bcs they are written by those same governments, how can he be so full of himself and say "I wrote this good, hence it's good". I consider it double standards.

That's why i liked that scene, bcs all sides brought up good points, but in the end, the decision has to be made, and IMO it's black or white, there is no middle ground.

E.g. - Both Tony and Banner feel like crap due to Hulk rampaging throughout the city in AoU. But Tony at least tried to steer the fight away from the city. Cap runs after Brumlow, ends up killing dozens of people in doing so, meh, i don't need to be put in check. Where were the guidelines there?

The point is they're not law. If others disagree they dont have to follow it. That's not a double standard unless he's trying to force his way on everyone else

 

[FyrFytr998]

In the Sokovia thing, it kind of was. Black or white.



I'm not debating whether it's in the spirit of the character from the comics. Yes, the main point in comic iteration and the MCU iteration is the same. I'm debating the way it was done, give the entire context and the other actions done by Cap.

In the end, he was right about Bucky. He was wrong on a number of things. He was wrong on Tony, assessing him as a nobody but a human in an armor (which Tony counter-argumented by saving the entire New York City from getting nuked). He was against creating Vision, which kinda turned out OK (otherwise entire Earth population would be screwed). He was wrong in not destroying the mind stone, which wiped out HALF THE GALAXY. He was wrong on so many levels, but I don't need to go further, those three examples are more than enough.

And in the context of MCU, Iron Man did far more than Cap America and you know it. *tips hat

Because........


It’s coming.......shhhhhhh.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

As far as Tony's faults, I don't gloss over them, and neither does Tony. This is the part where it's not just which character i like the most, it's the part of which character grew the most during the Avengers run. And that's undoubtedly Tony. Tony feels grief, depression, remorse, for all the wrongs he did. He ponders about every decision for days, SOLELY bcs he's made so many bad decisions. I didn't get the notion Cap does the same.

if you think Cap doesnt feel grief or remorse youve not been watching...... he just deals with his issues better than Tony, because he isnt a total flake. He also doesnt make anywhere close to as many bad decisions as Tony. So thats why Tony feels the way he does, its usually his fuck ups that need cleaned up

 

[PRIDEWASBETTER]

So, we're back to arguing about Civil War? Good times.

 

[taurus]

The point is they're not law. If others disagree they dont have to follow it. That's not a double standard unless he's trying to force his way on everyone else

if you think Cap doesnt feel grief or remorse youve not been watching...... he just deals with his issues better than Tony, because he isnt a total flake. He also doesnt make anywhere close to as many bad decisions as Tony. So thats why Tony feels the way he does, its usually his fuck ups that need cleaned up

It's clear I won't change your mind(s), and you won't change mine. While "I can go all day", i feel i've driven this thread waaay past it's original content. So, for now, i bid the both of you adiou.

Because........
View attachment 379189

It’s coming.......shhhhhhh.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

It's clear I won't change your mind(s), and you won't change mine. While "I can go all day", i feel i've driven this thread waaay past it's original content. So, for now, i bid the both of you adiou.

yeah dude, everyone has an opinion.... but mine is pretty simple. Cap >>> Iron Man when it comes to moral compass. Cap >>>> Iron Man on decision making

 

[MayhemMonkey]

So, we're back to arguing about Civil War? Good times.

I dont need to ask what team you are do I?

 

[PRIDEWASBETTER]

I dont need to ask what team you are do I?

Haha no sir

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Haha no sir

 

[FyrFytr998]

I dont need to ask what team you are do I?

Can’t we all just get along?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Can’t we all just get along?

 

[method115]

OK, my bad, for the insult part.

Back to topic, I didn't say I don't like Cap (as pictured in the MCU) bcs of that. What i dislike the most is his hypocrisy. Great example IMO is the Sokovia accords scene.



He states that he doesn't want ANY REGULATION WHATSOEVER over the Avengers, bcs "the governments have agendas". That's a fair point, to be honest. But not if you have your own agenda (not to mention that Avengers have their own agenda, regardless of it being good or bad), which is to cover for Bucky (just on Bucky's word, bcs why not, he was my friend 60-70 years ago before i became frozen in ace, and before he was subjected to secret supersoldier, superhypnosis, experiments which resulted in him being the most prolific assassin in the world) while keeping it from the group.

He wants to run freely as possible, doing whatever he wants, completely free of charge, regardless of outcomes? That doesn't sound right, and is not in the spirit of Cap America. Yes, i can understand his paranoia in a way that certain things did occur in Winter Soldier, but still.

That was the reasoning behind my "self righteous" statement. He wants to do something on his own, without discussing it with the group, he goes on and does it, thinks nothing of it if someone objects it. He thinks someone else doesn't have to do something, he attacks them immediately. Look at the video above for how he says to Iron Man "You've already made up your mind". Get off your freakin' high horse, IT'S YOU that already made up his mind. Tony/Rhodes/Natasha, hell even Vision all state very good arguments for (at least) discussing the option of giving a certain amount of control to someone. But not Mr Perfect. His attitude is that he is always right, which I believe is inherently wrong, and I cannot say i can think highly of anyone that thinks they are always right.

The "language" bit in the Age of Ultron was another good example. Do as I say, not as I do kind of thing. Well, Iron Man sees right through it and is the only one not afraid to call him up on it. OK, that one is a weaker argument, maybe i'm reading too much into that tiny bit.

1. Your right the avengers do have their own Agenda and at some point Cap makes it clear that it may not always be right but at least they will be in control of their own actions.

2. After the events of winter soldier you have to understand Cap changed. The top spy program in the US was seconds away from murdering billions. This isn't something you can just say "but still" and brush it off. Cap is also the only one in the group who really understands the way the military\government operate with things like this as he has first hand experience.

3. Tony had already made up his mind Cap might have to and I feel they all gave good reasons for and against it but at the end of the day Captain America was 100% right. When he found out what really happened what did the military do? They didn't give a shit they ignored it. Not only that but they gave all the power to one of the most dangerous and corrupt generals in the Marvel universe. You talk about Cap doing whatever he wants this guy does whatever he wants and then some.

4. At the end of the day I think your confusing Cap's argument. It's no that he always feels he's right it's that he doesn't trust anyone's judgement but his own and frankly he's been right so far.

 

[method115]

if you think Cap doesnt feel grief or remorse youve not been watching...... he just deals with his issues better than Tony, because he isnt a total flake. He also doesnt make anywhere close to as many bad decisions as Tony. So thats why Tony feels the way he does, its usually his fuck ups that need cleaned up

Tony really is the one causing a lot of issues. In the second Iron Man his robots are used to attack people, 3rd Iron man his robots are used to kidnap the president, he causes the Ultron incident. Creates Vision who basically paralyzes his best friend.

Seems like Tony is the only one who should be on watch by the government.