International Australia's Position in Asia-Pacific Geopolitics, as Beijing's Rising Shadow Casts Over Canberra.

Of course we should have American nuclear subs here, but i bet we won't. Australians have this incredible fear strike them when they hear the word nuclear, it's embarrassing.
No doubt the Greens and Labor will have a good old moan about this over the next week or so.
Our government is pretty gutless and will bow to the pressure of the other parties i suspect and say no to America. So much for this 'special' relationship we are supposed to have with the U.S.

I really don't think most Aussies or Westerners recognize the threat of China, too busy taking selfies.
Like i've said before, i believe in the event of a war with China some Western countries will abandon America and go with China as they'll think America has no chance. No loyalty.
China is wants it's own empire, simple as that.

Some people have this some sort of illusion that China will be be a better alternative to the current Western dominated power structure for global stability.

For some its like a wet dream to see the US collapse.

I think the reason is just the competitive nature of humans they see the USAs millitary might and know that the US dominates like an empire. And in recent years the US havent been beaten in a devastating way in an all out war.

Like a tottal war scenario. So they are excited to see the US gets embarassed.


Same reason why some people wants to see long time UFC/Pride champs go down.
 
Like we said to the Filipinos back in the 90s: either way is fine with us.

Just make sure you're ready for what comes next after U.S forces piss off.

Why leave? They’ll come crying for us sooner or later.
 
U-571 and the Hunt for Red October are two of my favorite movies! Love a good submarine story.

That being said, I don't want my tax dollars defending Australia. Enough Chinese and Asian people are immigrating there anyways, so it is basically an Asian colony anyways.
 
Of course we should have American nuclear subs here, but i bet we won't. Australians have this incredible fear strike them when they hear the word nuclear, it's embarrassing.
No doubt the Greens and Labor will have a good old moan about this over the next week or so.

Yeah, I do find Australia's aversion to cutting-edge nuclear tech to be quite peculiar, especially when it is a country that have to import all its fuels from its Asian neighbors by way of the South China Sea, right through the hot zones that the Chinese want to rules over. And this is 60 years after the shellshock from the USS Nautilus at Operation Rum Tub.

I mean, it would totally make sense to go back to diesel if Australia is sitting on top of an oil field like Alberta or Texas and can be self-sufficient with all its energy needs, but as it stands, Canberra's incredibly small strategic fuel reserve is only enough keep the country going for a few weeks at most when the shit hits the fan.

Is it Time for Australia to Buy Nuclear Submarines?
Geoffrey Barker | June 19, 2017

2016-12-20t041938z_1_lynxmpecbj05z_rtroptp_3_japan-australia-submarine.jpg

Australia’s decision to spend $50 billion on 12 French diesel-electric Shortfin Barracuda submarines reflects a long-established government preference for non-nuclear submarine forces. But will this preference remain strategically credible in future years if our strategic circumstances continue to deteriorate and if potential competitors continue to expand and to modernize their submarine fleets?

Australia’s new submarines are a conventional variant of a French nuclear-powered submarine design, and are scheduled to enter service from the early 2030s to the 2050s. So perhaps we need to remain open to possibly acquiring some nuclear-powered Shortfin Barracudas during the lengthy building period. A mix of conventional and nuclear submarines might prove to be an optimum outcome for Australia.

Of course it would be necessary to consider serious questions including cost, capability, crew training and availability, submarine numbers, local access to nuclear technology and nuclear technicians, inter-service rivalries, and domestic political acceptability among other things. But if changing circumstances were to force a decision on government, there’s at least some intriguing fairly recent history to help guide decision-makers.

The history is detailed in the prize-winning The Silent Deep by Peter Hennessy and James Jinks (Penguin Books, 2016), a history of the British Royal Navy submarine service since 1945. Hennessy and Jinks reveal the impact on the Royal Navy of the October 1957 visit to the UK of the USS Nautilus, the world’s first operational nuclear submarine, to take part in Operation Rum Tub, an exercise that matched Nautilus against Royal Navy ships.

In the exercise, Nautilus tore the Royal Navy apart so comprehensively that Lord Louis Mountbatten, the First Sea Lord, was moved to write at the time ‘we now appreciate that we are in the presence of a revolution in naval warfare in some ways more far-reaching than the transition from sail to steam’.

The Commander in Chief Home Fleet, Admiral Sir John Eccles, summed up the four key advantages of the nuclear submarine. It had complete freedom of action in three dimensions, it could disregard threats from the air because it could stay submerged, it had a good picture of what was happening on the surface, and it was ‘vastly superior’ to surface ships and conventional submarines in the attack role.

The Admiralty Board declared: ‘If the Royal Navy did not acquire these submarines it would cease to count as a naval force in world affairs’. It’s worth underscoring that these judgements on nuclear submarines were written 60 years ago.


Hennessy and Jinks detail the saga of Britain’s initial acquisition of four nuclear submarines with what passed for assistance from American Admiral Hyman G. Rickover. They show how the acquisitions transformed Britain’s ability to deliver nuclear weapons from the sea rather than from the air. It’s a remarkable narrative of Cold War strategic evolution.

Given the changing and increasingly fraught strategic environment facing Australia, defense planners cannot sit back contentedly as the new submarine construction gets underway. It may be that conventional submarine technology today is far superior to what was available to the Royal Navy during Operation Rum Tub in 1957. But it is also certain that nuclear submarine technology has advanced since the era of USS Nautilus. Australia needs to remain nimble and flexible in its force structure judgements

A fleet of conventional Shortfin Barracuda submarines would doubtless contribute to Australia’s ability to deter potential foreign intrusions and to support international naval coalitions with allies like the United States and Japan. But Australians would do well to recognize that in regional terms it is a very small fleet indeed.

North Korea, for example, has the region’s biggest submarine fleet with some 70 decrepit old tubs. China has some 68 submarines including around 10 nuclear submarines and it is working ferociously to increase and modernize its fleet. Indonesia has two submarines in service, two under sea trials and one under construction and it’s moving to update and modernize.

Of course these sketchy and imprecise raw numbers mean little. What matters is the quality of the boats and the lethality of their arms. Happily Australia’s key ally, the United States, has far and away the most powerful submarine fleet globally with some 66 boats, all nuclear-powered.

Which is why there may be some sense in noting the lessons of history. Back in 1957, as Hennessy and Jinks argue, the question was not whether the UK could afford nuclear submarines. After Nautilus, the question was whether the UK could afford to be without them. That question might, in time, confront Australia.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/it-time-australia-buy-nuclear-submarines-21219
 
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I spotted a gremlin ITT and I guess he does not have the courage to answer questions posed to him. Maybe mr. gremlin will come out and play later.
 
Subic is done...You Flips made your choices :cool:
MDT and EDCA is still active Mr.Trump can negotiate with Duterte and his cabinet.

If Mr.Trump can convince Kim jong Un to come to the negotiating table I would assume he is more than capable to talk to Mr.Duterte and Co. Mr.Trump I am sure have very persuassive friends in Washington.


But I could be wrong.

Your country might op to coexist and to some extent contain greater China.

I mentioned greater China as I think the new status quo in the South Eas Asia will be a balance of power in China's favor, Philippines will be pro Chinese in no time the Malaysian archipelago will be next.

And I think the USA will accept this new Chinese dominated hegemony and coexist diplomatically and maintaining open trade with China and her new allies.

And US will use Australia to setup bases to enforce the new status quo and containment.

I think Mr. @V2 from the carman line can share is theories about the USA not needing access in South China sea for its national security and can remain powerful even without allies and trading in the region.
 
Why is Australia not part of the ASEAN when it's geographically located right next to South East Asia?
 
Why is Australia not part of the ASEAN when it's geographically located right next to South East Asia?

They are not culturally ASEAN and their allegiances and difference in ecconomic value seems too high compared to Asean nations back when Asean was created.
 
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Australia's ongoing conflict between our Chinese economic interests and role as American foreign policy lap dog is currently at an all time low.
The relevance of the Anzus treaty, especially under the Trump regime, is also highly questionable. We don't even have an American ambassador (and haven't had one for 18 months). The "pivot to Asia" never happened. In a multipolar world I'm far from convinced our interests remain with the US, and the history of us joining in every American overseas adventure is ridiculous. We would have been better allies if we'd told the US to bugger off when they asked for us to validate their "coalition of the willing" in Iraq.

I 100% disagree infact I think cosying up with America is more important now than ever. We might be economically closer to China but it was Americas trade that built China yet ive never heard any Chinese polis grovvelling over the fact.

Its in our best interest to arm up too insure China knows we have the capabilities to annihilate them if they ever think of invasion, haha.

At the same time I dont really think joining them in every military adventure benefits us yet whos interest benefits us, china ? Debatable.
 
I 100% disagree infact I think cosying up with America is more important now than ever. We might be economically closer to China but it was Americas trade that built China yet ive never heard any Chinese polis grovvelling over the fact.

Its in our best interest to arm up too insure China knows we have the capabilities to annihilate them if they ever think of invasion, haha.

At the same time I dont really think joining them in every military adventure benefits us yet whos interest benefits us, china ? Debatable.

With US as a threat againts China the Chinese might get more bolder in their geopolitical expansion. And might start bribing Aussie politicians for more access to Australian infra and resources and could buncrupt your country in the end.

Uhhm I thought you are Australian but I check your prof it says Ottawa.
 
Like we said to the Filipinos back in the 90s: either way is fine with us.

Just make sure you're ready for what comes next after U.S forces piss off.

Like what? A Chinese invasion?

I 100% disagree infact I think cosying up with America is more important now than ever. We might be economically closer to China but it was Americas trade that built China yet ive never heard any Chinese polis grovvelling over the fact.

Its in our best interest to arm up too insure China knows we have the capabilities to annihilate them if they ever think of invasion, haha.

At the same time I dont really think joining them in every military adventure benefits us yet whos interest benefits us, china ? Debatable.

Why? What’s the logic behind your statement?

Australia relies on China for most of its exports. Without China Australia is fucked, and no amount of military support from the US will save Australia economically.

So what real risk are you suggesting? That China will cut off trade or invade? In either situation Australia is fucked economically and no amount of help from the US (unless an outright war which forces China to continue trading) will save the country. Furthermore, it’s never guaranteed the US will step in, and their commitment to their allies flucuates from presidency to presidency. The current trend with Trump isn’t great, so what is the point of risking Australia’s economy? The Howard governments handling of this issue was perfect, and should be replicated (shame on Turnbull for failing in this regard).

Some hypothesise that a future China could try and invade Australia. This would be absurdly difficult for any nation, and most underestimate how large Australia really is. China is a long way away, and any future aggression of that kind would be foreseeable since they would likely invade SE Asia first. If that’s the case, then Australia and the world has time to prepare for a Chinese war.

Australia should focus on its own defence force and build up its navy independent of the US. Nuclear subs are not necessary, and don’t have the best war games track record. That being said, those new helicopter carriers were a huge waste of money, and instead Australia should have invested in one real carrier (which they traditionally had until the 1980s).
 
I 100% disagree infact I think cosying up with America is more important now than ever. We might be economically closer to China but it was Americas trade that built China yet ive never heard any Chinese polis grovvelling over the fact.

Its in our best interest to arm up too insure China knows we have the capabilities to annihilate them if they ever think of invasion, haha.

At the same time I dont really think joining them in every military adventure benefits us yet whos interest benefits us, china ? Debatable.

With US as a threat againts China the Chinese might get more bolder in their geopolitical expansion. And might start bribing Aussie politicians for more access to Australian infra and resources and could buncrupt your country in the end.

Uhhm I thought you are Australian but I check your prof it says Ottawa.

Obama actually tried his "Pivot to Asia" and using military presence as a containment strategy, and if anything it escalated regional tensions and made things worse.
The Chinese certainly didn't back down over the South China Sea. If anything they ramped things up.
It's not even clear that Trump is interested in pursuing a similar policy as he's made comments in both directions.
The most telling thing about Australia's level of priority to the current administration is that they haven't even appointed an Ambassador in 18 months. In fact they diverted the ambassador they were initially going to send to South Korea.
Even if Trump was inclined to try, in a multipolar world where economic power has greater ramifications than military might, it's unlikely the US can maintain a regional hegemony anyway. The world's economic centre has shifted to Asia.
Chinese political influence in Australia has been a hot button topic over the last year, with the Government taking a very hard line.
The reality is that our old colonial ties no longer determine our economic and political situation. Just as we shifted from primarily British orbit to America's coattails, we are much better off focusing on our regional engagement rather than just being an extension of US foreign policy.
 
Kevin Rudd, the darling former baby faced prime minister, has the nerve th question Turnbull on Australian-Chinese relations, but he is the one who fucked it all up to begin with! Prior to Rudd, the Howard government played a perfect balancing act between China and the US. Economically, Australia is far more dependent on China and the country is almost like a banana republic in regards to its reliance on China. Anywhom, Rudd (who can speak Chinese) came in and fucked everything up, even releasing a white paper that named China as a future enemy in a war.

If I remember correctly, Australia single-handedly wrecked the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (U.S-Australia-Japan-India alliance) ten years ago, during Kevin Rudd's term. I think that was the moment when the United States realized Australia will not help its Asian neighbors countering the rising Chinese ambitions to rule over South East Asia.

I wonder what the average Australian think about the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, by the way. Were there more Against than For? Was there like a debate or anything before Australia decided to pulled out of the alliance and let China do what ever it want?

Update: did a quick search and found something related:

Labor has a cancer growing in it that must be cut out
By Clive Hamilton | 19 February 2018

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Paul Keating has praised China's government as the best government in the world in the last 30 years

Canberra is finally beginning to push back against Beijing’s long-running campaign to seduce our elites so completely that the nation kow-tows before China’s wishes.

The first phase of the pushback culminated in December with the Turnbull government introducing legislation to outlaw foreign interference operations and novel forms of espionage. Afraid that its well-made plans will be thwarted, Beijing has been making panicky claims that it’s all motivated by “anti-Chinese racism”.

Led by shadow attorney-general Mark Dreyfus, the Labor Party is gearing up to oppose the legislation. Dreyfus says his concern is to protect press freedom, but that is being used to undermine the rationale of the laws themselves.

Amending the legislation to protect democratic freedoms is easy. The harder task is undoing the deep penetration of the Labor Party by proxies for and agents of the Chinese Communist Party. The spectacular downfall of Sam Dastyari was one clumsy instance of a more insidious problem for Labor.

The Liberal Party has been subject to the same kind of influence operations and the party undoubtedly has a problem. Yet, going by the Turnbull government’s determination to enact the foreign interference legislation, the Liberals still remain willing to put basic Australian democratic freedoms before Chinese money.
Apologists for China in the Labor Party have been working, wittingly or otherwise, to entrench China’s structure of influence. Last week, Kevin Rudd played perfectly into the hands of Beijing by lambasting the Turnbull government’s proposed laws as an “anti-China jihad”.

The Mandarin-speaking former prime minister said that current laws are perfectly adequate. If that’s true, why have there been no prosecutions? And why are several Western nations watching events here so intently, expecting to follow the trail being blazed in Australia?
The Rudd government’s approach to China was weak and indecisive, perhaps best represented by Rudd’s disastrous decision in 2008 to wreck the emerging Quadrilateral Security Dialogue with India, Japan and the United States. His pull-out, under Chinese pressure, soured relations with India and delayed for a decade cooperation between the four democratic powers to begin acting jointly to resist Beijing’s aggression.

Rudd believes what he put in place is enough to protect Australia. Anyone who has tracked China’s growing influence over the last several years, including our intelligence agencies, knows that is laughable.
It’s to be expected that a former leader will attempt to burnish his legacy, but when he uses his residual influence to expose the nation to foreign domination he needs to be called out. Rudd’s Labor predecessor Paul Keating retains much greater influence in the Labor Party and beyond. He chairs an international advisory council for the huge China Development Bank. He regularly praises the Communist Party bosses for their brilliant achievements—“the best government in the world for the last 30 years”—and calls for Australia to loosen our ties with the United States.

Keating is the godfather of the powerful NSW right faction of the ALP that has been so corrupted by Chinese influence. Dastyari may have gone because of his unseemly relationship with Chinese billionaire Huang Xiangmo, but plenty of powerful Beijing sympathisers remain.
Former NSW premier and foreign minister Bob Carr has been castigated for agreeing to run a “think tank” established with a large donation from Huang Xiangmo. Carr proudly proclaimed that the Australia-China Relations Institute would adopt a “positive and optimistic” view of China.
Tony Burke, a federal leadership aspirant, is also a beneficiary of Chinese money. His election campaign was boosted by a $30,000 donation from a source flagged by ASIO as connected to the CCP.

When asked on radio about the $30,000 donation, Burke said it was donated by a family friend, whom he holds in the “highest regard”.
There are current and former Labor politicians who understand fully the danger posed by the Chinese Communist Party to our democratic freedoms and support measures to protect our sovereignty. They include Richard Marles, Kim Beazley, John Faulkner, Michael Danby, Stephen Conroy and Anthony Byrne. But the party has a cancer growing in it, and it must cut it out.

Clive Hamilton is professor of public ethics at Charles Sturt University in Canberra. His book, Silent Invasion: China’s Influence in Australia, will be published by Hardie Grant at the end of this month.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-it-that-must-be-cut-out-20180218-p4z0q4.html

Like what? A Chinese invasion?

If what professor Hamilton said up there is true, and if there are other politicians like them in the Australian government, then there's really no need for the People's Liberation Army to physically invade Canberra in order to bring it under Beijing's control.
 
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That's strange. If I remember correctly, Australia single-handedly wrecked the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (U.S-Australia-Japan-India alliance) ten years ago, during Kevin Rudd's term.

I think that was the moment when the United States realized Australia will not help its Asian neighbors countering the rising Chinese ambitions to rule over South East Asia.

Australia's relationship with China has taken a very serious downturn recently as we continue to support the US and conduct collaborative military exercises in and around the South China Sea. Australia is well on board for this however thankfully it seems that no-one is yet willing to start dropping bombs or attacking one another.

Rudd's replacement as Australian prime minister by Julia Gillard in June 2010 was associated with a shift in Australian foreign policy towards a closer relationship to the United States and a distancing from China.[21]The Australian, which has written extensively on the Quadrilateral and on Australian defense issues, argued after Rudd’s replacement that "Australia's national interest is best served by continuing to engage and encourage our long-standing ally, the US, to retain its primacy in the region."[21] Despite Gillard's rapprochement with the US and increased US-Australian military cooperation, Rudd's decision to leave the Quadrilateral remained an object of criticism from Tony Abbott and the Liberal Party.[22]
 
Oz should build up its own forces to match any threat, or get together with rest of the Commonwealth and do such. Where is the pride for these nations? They should not feel any need for outside forces to help with protection.
 
Oz should build up its own forces to match any threat, or get together with rest of the Commonwealth and do such. No need to hide under America's skirt. Where is the pride for these nations. They should feel ashamed needing someone else to protect them.

Australia has a population of less than 25 million and so will never have a military force capable of defending itself or its ludicrously big coastline - mainland coastline is 22,000 miles, total coastline including islands is 37,000 miles. We have more coastline than the United States.

Australia is much better providing military support and allying itself to create a more stable world. Australia does a huge amount of peacekeeping in the pacific region as well, it's just that you apparently don't hear about it in America.
 
Australia has a population of less than 25 million and so will never have a military force capable of defending itself or its ludicrously big coastline - mainland coastline is 22,000 miles, total coastline including islands is 37,000 miles. We have more coastline than the United States.

Australia is much better providing military support and allying itself to create a more stable world. Australia does a huge amount of peacekeeping in the pacific region as well, it's just that you apparently don't hear about it in America.

Then they should focus on having qualitative military as much as they can.
 
That's strange. If I remember correctly, Australia single-handedly wrecked the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (U.S-Australia-Japan-India military alliance) ten years ago, during Kevin Rudd's term.

Rudd was and is very pro-engagement with China, but his defence policy was all about hedging his bets.
The extent of that was revealed by Wikileaks.
He didn't actually fund that proposed military buildup though.
 
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