Attacking from Turtle Guard

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SteppingStones, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. SteppingStones

    SteppingStones White Belt

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    I've been scouring YouTube looking for info on how to attack from the turtle guard and not just stall, but no such luck. If anyone could give me some pointers it would be much appreciated.
     
  2. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    Your "sweeps" are pretty much variations of wrestling reversals... Telles does a lot of peterson-esque type rolls. You can do a switch.

    As for actually attacking submissions... you have the kimura sakuraba style. You can roll under for a knee bar/leg lock. That's pretty much it for submissions I think. There are lots of things you can as you roll back to guard, like triangles, etc.

    I have Eduardo Telles' set "Turtle and Octopus guard"... and it is pretty much the authority on turtle in bjj. Telles has the most stuff. I use some of his defensive stuff like defending the clock, but I was never really able to implement his "sweeps" against guys at my size and level, despite already being familiar with his reversals from wrestling.
     
  3. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    Here:







    if you mean n/s turtle, that is really a different position.
     
  4. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    I still find it hard to believe Telles has no wrestling background with the sweeps he's using. 'Parallel Thinking' is always a possibility, just doesn't feel likely.
     
  5. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    There are only so many ways to escape from the turtle.

    Little-known fact, Telles developed his turtle game from butterfly guard. He kept playing more and more of a "squashed" butterfly, bringing the other foot increasingly further under him until he just played pure turtle.

    I think turtle guard is simply too difficult and specialized to be effective for 95% of players. Among other things, the rest of your game better be razor tight before you start working on an offensive turtle game.
     
  6. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    I don't think there is a conspiracy to cover up his wrestling base. Obviously he picked the moves up from somewhere and then tweaked them some... I don't think anyone is denying that BJJ guys integrated wrestling early on.

    I am sure we have all seen this:

    [​IMG]

    ZOMG Rickson has a wrestling base! I am sure wrestling stuff came in way before that. I don't think anyone, even the GJJ marketers, try to deny that.
     
  7. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    It certainly isn't as versatile as guard. For one, you can be subbed there pretty easily, and there are virtually no subs for you. So "guard" as we usually think of it really should be a step above turtle IMO. Guard= lots of subs, sweeps, escapes, and very few attacks against you. Turtle= escapes, reversals, no subs, and you can be subbed in any number of ways. I think a lot of guys that have trouble playing guard get sidetracked on the turtle path (self included)... but guard really is a better position IMO.
     
  8. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    There are lots of attacks and options from the turtle. The problem is there is just way too much to handle. Your defenses and attacks are very complicated, and they differ completely depending upon whether the guy is in front of you, to your side, or behind you. I think it is just too technically demanding for people to use with offensive success unless they are basically a black belt who devotes a lot of time to it. Most people can't even handle rudimentary turtle defense, much less escaping, much less attacking.

    I have Telles' set, and a few years ago I worked on the material, but this was my conclusion ... it's simply too much unless you are going to be a turtle specialist and the rest of your game is already good. This is why, I think, nobody else has developed a very solid turtle game. Instead you see people going to turtle to defend the guard pass, which is a different thing from developing an offensive turtle game.
     
  9. Terror Zone

    Terror Zone Banned Banned

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    Every time I've heard Telles explain it, he's said that as a purple belt Terere kept passing his open guard and instead of working to get his guard back, he got used to turtling. He talks about it here, but I've heard him give this same explanation in interviews as well.


    Wrong.
     
  10. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That's what I recall somebody saying who had trained with him back in the academy ... this was years ago though. That Telles kept going from butterfly more and more into a turtle defensive position earlier and earlier to defend the guard pass until he ended up basically just turtling from the start.

    As to whether turtle guard is too specialized to be effective for 95% of people, I suppose you can disagree with me but I haven't exactly seen a wave of people dominating from turtle in BJJ. My belief is that only a few people are able to get it to work due to its technical demands. If I'm wrong and turtle is the new berimbolo, I'd be delighted to see that, as I think it's a very cool game.
     
  11. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    I've had fun with Turtle guard...everything I know I saw in Telles' video.

    I certainly haven't become a Turtle specialist, but I think it's important to have 1 or 2 go to's from the Turtle in case you get stuck there. I usually try to quickly roll over a shoulder to reguard, but sometimes you get smashed and can't do it. Better have something to do. :)
     
  12. Terror Zone

    Terror Zone Banned Banned

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    I just don't think it's fair to judge a guard game that essentially isn't even being taught. I used to turtle a lot and end up getting tapped before I knew who Telles was. Ever since I started working on what I learned in his instructional and from watching videos of him rolling/competing years ago, I rarely have my back taken and I can't even remember the last time turtling led to me being submitted. Other than one black belt I train with whose specialty is taking the back and the crucifix, it basically never happens.

    I doubt we'll ever see a wave of people dominating with it as it's not the most aesthetically pleasing style to watch or fun game to develop. You have to really stick with turtle for a while to make it work because it sucks in the beginning. The learning curve is a bit steeper for BJJ guys too because they're so used to being told that giving up their back is the worst thing they can do. If we ever do see it on a larger scale, I believe it'll be in MMA. Neil Melanson has been teaching it at Xtreme Couture and a lot of fighters use it just to get back to their feet successfully.
     
  13. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    I think turtle works fine for all levels. There's a learning curve but there's a learning for everything. If you wanna use half guard, you're going to get flattened in the beginning.

    Berimbolo is popular because it allows you to score points in a game that used to look like fighting I think we would see turtle a lot more if you got points for sweeping from there.
     
  14. JohnyBoyy

    JohnyBoyy Orange Belt

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    Invisible wrestling!
     
  15. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    That's not really what I meant, although when I asked about Telles a while ago, I was told he had no wrestling training or base.
     
  16. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    I think you score in FILA Grappling, a reversal point + position point (like side control). I think FILA gives you an escape point as well, like getting back to a full closed guard from under a dominant position.

    It's been a while since I looked at those rules.
     
  17. Hillary

    Hillary Brown Belt

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    Turtle is not a frickin' guard.
     
  18. Dean Lewis

    Dean Lewis Orange Belt

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    <3

    I suppose it all gets down to categorization, but I really don't see how it's a guard more than a transitional position. You can be submitted from there, flattened out into back mount or get your back taken directly from the position...
     
  19. 2om30

    2om30 Red Belt

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    I lol'D at this..
     
  20. Hillary

    Hillary Brown Belt

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    Guard is a position where, facing the opponent, your feet/legs are between you and them passing the guard. That way, by passing the guard, you reach top position. You can't pass a turtle guard. There are a variety of confusing ways that this is not a guard.
     

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