Ask the guy who just took the ABC refereeing/judging training

[Doctor Grudge]

Hey! I just rolled back into town from taking the two-day training on MMA refereeing and judging provided by the Association of Boxing Commissions. (It was in Austin; I'm in Houston.) While the ABC itself doesn't certify or sanction judges or refs, this course is a preamble to getting certified by the NSAC, CSAC, TDLR, etc.

Attendees numbered about 50-55, and included a large crowd of people who planned to get into officiating, plus a half-dozen of the best-known refs/judges in Texas.

If anyone's curious, I'm here to answer any questions.

What about judging adequate?

Is it appropriate to get excited during a fight like a fan? Should you always look like you're writing something on a piece of paper? Is it advised to keep notes? Are you totally unsupervised etc.

 

[Sweater of AV]

For judges: Damage is paramount. Takedowns that do not lead to damage, either through ground strikes or legitimate submission attempts, count for nothing. Being on top in guard is not inherently an advantageous position

The vast majority of people need to read this.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

As I mentioned upthread, I'm staying away from naming specific fight examples from the course out of consideration for the instructor and other students, but most of the examples of "this was a screwup, and this is how it probably could have been avoided" were on the refereeing side, not judging.

I will say that the principle that takedowns without follow-up offense are basically meaningless, and top position in guard is not inherently superior to bottom, was heavily discussed during the scoring seminar and on the test.

That's good to hear. I didn't need specific fights or judges called out but with out naming names did they address holding judges accountable? Not like string them up in the streets but more of a Judge X had to explain why they scored a clear 30-27 for the loser with a 28-29 outlier and sat down to review the scoring criteria?

 

[heavy_hands]

did any potential refs smell of alcohol and cigarettes?

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

That's good to hear. I didn't need specific fights or judges called out but with out naming names did they address holding judges accountable? Not like string them up in the streets but more of a Judge X had to explain why they scored a clear 30-27 for the loser with a 28-29 outlier and sat down to review the scoring criteria?

We definitely went over the idea that a referee or judge can be called on to explain their decisions or scores at any time. It happens more often than I realized, and we covered best practices for: 1) making correct calls that hopefully need no justification; and 2) explaining our decisions in a clear and reasonable manner. Even if a score isn't overturned on appeal, being able to defend it (or not) can affect how likely you are to get more jobs in that jurisdiction in the future. (Commissions don't like being lightning rods for questionable decisions any more than fans or fighters enjoy being subjected to them.) The point was made that if you do either of these jobs for long enough, you will absolutely, 100% make mistakes. How you conduct yourself in the wake of those mistakes is almost as important in determining your professional reputation as the errors themselves.

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

did any potential refs smell of alcohol and cigarettes?

Only me.

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

The vast majority of people need to read this.

It's right there in the rules, which anyone can read for free right now.

 

[Sweater of AV]

It's right there in the rules, which anyone can read for free right now.

It is but judges still don't follow it and people don't believe that should be the case. I'm just glad it's being mentioned here as well. I've heard arguments like "if someone can get on top of you while not doing anything or attempting to advance position and you can't do anything about it then how can you call that a stalemate?". It's ridiculous.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

We definitely went over the idea that a referee or judge can be called on to explain their decisions or scores at any time. It happens more often than I realized, and we covered best practices for: 1) making correct calls that hopefully need no justification; and 2) explaining our decisions in a clear and reasonable manner. Even if a score isn't overturned on appeal, being able to defend it (or not) can affect how likely you are to get more jobs in that jurisdiction in the future. (Commissions don't like being lightning rods for questionable decisions any more than fans or fighters enjoy being subjected to them.) The point was made that if you do either of these jobs for long enough, you will absolutely, 100% make mistakes. How you conduct yourself in the wake of those mistakes is almost as important in determining your professional reputation as the errors themselves.

Thanks. Good to hear. It always feels like judges who make what seem like insane scorecards are never held to account but I understand not publicly shaming them. Have you heard of any examples of a judge (Not specifically Adelaide Byrde) who make terrible scores being benched or outright taken off the commissions list?

I also wonder if there was any talk of judges from boxing backgrounds being given less opportunity to judge MMA as opposed to having people with actual MMA exposure ie training in BJJ, Wrestling & kickboxing?

 

[Senzo Tanaka]

I've noticed an improvement in commentary especially from Cormier and Anik after taking the course. They are appropriately noting that damage/effective grappling are the most important criteria while defense, octagon control and aggression aren't worth any points.

It got so old hearing them say "X is the aggressor and is winning the round!" Aggression means dick unless striking/grappling are 100% even.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

Thanks. Good to hear. It always feels like judges who make what seem like insane scorecards are never held to account but I understand not publicly shaming them. Have you heard of any examples of a judge (Not specifically Adelaide Byrde) who make terrible scores being benched or outright taken off the commissions list?

I also wonder if there was any talk of judges from boxing backgrounds being given less opportunity to judge MMA as opposed to having people with actual MMA exposure ie training in BJJ, Wrestling & kickboxing?

I used to reffed and judge mma and muaythai events and I find judging much more nerve-wracking as opposed to running around, trying to break up guys and stopping people from breaking their opponent's arms.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

Can you explain the difference in setups between a D'Arce Choke and an Anaconda Choke?

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

Can you explain the difference in setups between a D'Arce Choke and an Anaconda Choke?

You're damn right I can, and so can you, Mr. Took The Class A Few Weeks Before Me. It still takes me a few seconds to sort out which one I'm looking at from a photo, though.

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

Thanks. Good to hear. It always feels like judges who make what seem like insane scorecards are never held to account but I understand not publicly shaming them. Have you heard of any examples of a judge (Not specifically Adelaide Byrde) who make terrible scores being benched or outright taken off the commissions list?

Mike Mazzulli, i.e. the guy most likely to make such a decision in most cases, was actually there. Decertifying a judge isn't really done; what happens is that judge simply doesn't get any more work. He said the quickest way to guarantee you never get any more jobs from him is to argue or otherwise discuss your work over social media. (Again, as mentioned upthread, everyone makes mistakes; it's how you handle them in the aftermath that determines how you are perceived as a professional.)

I also wonder if there was any talk of judges from boxing backgrounds being given less opportunity to judge MMA as opposed to having people with actual MMA exposure ie training in BJJ, Wrestling & kickboxing?

It didn't come up, and wouldn't have in our situation. There would have been no reason to; everyone in the room was pretty firmly and obviously an MMA person, even if some were primarily grapplers or strikers by training. (The ABC boxing referee training was going on next door at the same location.)

 

[MDoza]

How much do you have to pay to be a ref?

 

[Sticko]

Good example. Yes, Jacob Montalvo. As for someone reffing and judging on the same card at a recent UFC event, sorry, I'm a little skeptical about that. Can you give me a specific?

Now that I've thought about it some more, I do recall Ref Jerin Valel judging a UFC event, but he didn't do any reffing.

OK, here's an example: UFC 271 from Houston, TX which had 14 fights

Refs used: Herb Dean, Jacob Montalvo, Kerry Hatley, Dan Miragliotta, Mike Beltran
Judges used: Sal d'Amato, Ivan Guzman, Hatley, Robert Alexander, Doug Crosby, Patrick Patlan, Jeff Rexroad, Beltran, Montalvo, Miragliotta

Hatley, Miragliotta, Beltran and Montalvo did both

UFC 271: Official scorecards from Houston (usatoday.com)

 

[Leonard Haid]

OK, here's an example: UFC 271 from Houston, TX which had 14 fights

Refs used: Herb Dean, Jacob Montalvo, Kerry Hatley, Dan Miragliotta, Mike Beltran
Judges used: Sal d'Amato, Ivan Guzman, Hatley, Robert Alexander, Doug Crosby, Patrick Patlan, Jeff Rexroad, Beltran, Montalvo, Miragliotta

Hatley, Miragliotta, Beltran and Montalvo did both

UFC 271: Official scorecards from Houston (usatoday.com)

Excellent research. I realize now why I was skeptical, because the judges are only announced for the main events and for the championship fights, and for those events I don't recall ever (well, maybe once or twice tops) hearing a judge's name who was also a ref during that event. I did not take into account that there would be other judges for the 10 + other fights....duh. For almost all of the fights, who the judges are is never announced to the viewer. So how could I possibly assume that a judge for an event couldn't also be a ref during the same event? You know, you hear the same judges' names over and over again, like Sal D'Amato and Derek Cleary, and they are never the names of well-known refs, then you start to think well, judges are one group of people, refs are another group.

Gotta check out ALL the scorecards for events from now on to get to the bottom of this.

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

How much do you have to pay to be a ref?

That's a complicated question, and this answer will be long! I mean, you can say right now, "Hey, I'm an MMA referee!" and in a lot of places where MMA isn't regulated or sanctioned, you are now just as official a referee as Jason Herzog. That doesn't mean anyone is going to let you referee their fight, though.

In a practical sense, if you want to work as a referee, you need to be certified by the jurisdiction where you work. For example, if I want to work a UFC event here in Texas, I'd need to be licensed by the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TLDR). In Las Vegas, it would be the Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC); in Los Angeles, the CSAC. There is a licensing fee which varies from state to state and is usually pretty small.

However, in many states you need to be trained before you can be licensed, and even in the states where that is not required, nobody is going to hire you to referee an event if you can't prove you know how to do the job. The course I just took was $125, but that is the bare, absolute minimum you need even to get the process started. For example: false modesty aside, I know my shit really well; I aced the test easily and would probably have passed even if I took it before the class. And even with that being the case, I would never dream of trying to get licensed as a referee or judge until I had done at least 100 fights as an inspector, with the idea of shadowing/apprenticing from the judges and referees as I did so. And once I was licensed, I wouldn't dream of trying to referee a fight solo until I had spent enough time working with a good referee that he felt I was ready to go.

I think poor officiating is a serious, chronic problem within mixed martial arts—and every other combat sport I know of—even if I think the overall quality of referees and judges is actually pretty high. Since it's a known problem, however, I wouldn't throw my hat into the ring, so to speak, if I was worried I might make it worse.

 

[brackis1]

That's a complicated question, and this answer will be long! I mean, you can say right now, "Hey, I'm an MMA referee!" and in a lot of places where MMA isn't regulated or sanctioned, you are now just as official a referee as Jason Herzog. That doesn't mean anyone is going to let you referee their fight, though.

In a practical sense, if you want to work as a referee, you need to be certified by the jurisdiction where you work. For example, if I want to work a UFC event here in Texas, I'd need to be licensed by the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TLDR). In Las Vegas, it would be the Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC); in Los Angeles, the CSAC. There is a licensing fee which varies from state to state and is usually pretty small.

However, in many states you need to be trained before you can be licensed, and even in the states where that is not required, nobody is going to hire you to referee an event if you can't prove you know how to do the job. The course I just took was $125, but that is the bare, absolute minimum you need even to get the process started. For example: false modesty aside, I know my shit really well; I aced the test easily and would probably have passed even if I took it before the class. And even with that being the case, I would never dream of trying to get licensed as a referee or judge until I had done at least 100 fights as an inspector, with the idea of shadowing/apprenticing from the judges and referees as I did so. And once I was licensed, I wouldn't dream of trying to referee a fight solo until I had spent enough time working with a good referee that he felt I was ready to go.

I think poor officiating is a serious, chronic problem within mixed martial arts—and every other combat sport I know of— and I wouldn't throw my hat into the ring, so to speak, if I was worried I might make it worse.

You sound overqualified compared to actual cards I watch though.

 

[BenjaminDuffy]

You sound overqualified compared to actual cards I watch though.

One thing that I learned, to my surprise, at this training is how much harder this stuff is than it seems.

For example, I've scored hundreds of fights as part of Sherdog's play-by-play scoring teams. I'm all over MMADecisions [Ron Burgundy I'm-kind-of-a-big-deal voice]. I came into that seminar thinking I was probably better than a few well-known MMA judges.

Then I actually tried it in the classroom setting. We used some regional fights as training exercises, because they often have only one camera going, which is a closer approximation of a judge sitting at a stationary stool with a single visual angle.

Holy shit was that a different beast. I quickly realized how dependent I had been on multiple cameras, the ability to pause and replay, and the luxury of having 15-30 seconds to gather my thoughts before giving my score to the PBP guy. I usually watch UFC and Bellator events with the sound off, so that was no big deal, but for some people I expect the lack of a live commentary booth naming techniques and pointing out nuances in the action would be another shock. And then to top it off, we needed to get our score in within three seconds of the bell, like a live event, where an inspector or ref comes up almost immediately to take your slip.

Same for refereeing. I flatter myself that I can recognize and name striking, wrestling and grappling techniques, and fouls, better than most people, but to do it at live speed would take a ton of reps and practice. Hell, just learning to continually stay at the correct angle and distance from the action is a major challenge. Think of how often we slam a ref for being too far from the fighters (thus arriving late at a huge knockout), too close (getting bumped or run into or otherwise interfering with the action), or out of position (missing a tap or even a fighter that has gone unconscious).

Anyway. I think it's a job I could do, given enough practice and continued coaching, but that course gave me a much-needed shot of humility—and appreciation for what goes into the job of MMA judges and referees.