Armed Combat

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by thecas, Aug 15, 2005.

  1. thecas

    thecas Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess this is still apt here, after all almost all unarmed vs armed techniques involves grappling.

    Basically, anyone knows what is the BJJ of armed combat? Is it Krav Maga, Arnise or even Aikido[Yeah, they hav these when u reach dan stage]. I am especially curious here about Arnise.

    I guess this is bcoz none of us here wanna wake up one day to learn we have been learning Karate of Armed combat.

    And it sure is worth learning bcoz by far most robbers will make sure they hav a weapon b4 they rob u.
     
  2. mysilentsigh

    mysilentsigh the sun is but a morning star

    Joined:
    May 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,010
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    germany
    i think that if a robber has a weapon you should let him rob you.
     
  3. mogway

    mogway Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    0
    It depend son the situation, but if the guy has a weapon, it's RFR: Run Forrest Run.
     
  4. Rip Van Winkle

    Rip Van Winkle Last Login 2009

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    everywhere
    why put your life in danger against a deadly weapon? Man to man is one thing, but man vs gun...I don't care what training you have...If I'm holding the gun and you attempt to attack me and remove the gun....guess what, you're gonna be missing a few brain cells....since your brain will be splattered out of the back of your head.

    Like the guy stated previously...let the asshats rob you, call the police, give a good description.
     
  5. thecas

    thecas Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or shld I add..in most revenge attacks[justified or not..here there was one case before when a guy beat the other up when the other won him in a video game..and it included using chairs perhaps.], murders, kidnapping attempts, the other will try to get a weapon.
     
  6. zaner

    zaner Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Waldron AR
    I agree with these guys, but I've spent time asking the same questions. I think Krav Maga has good concepts as far as this stuff goes. Some elite Hapkido guys or Combat/japanese JJ guys have good stuff to learn from too. It's dangerous stuff, fighting unarmed vs armed, but if you're in a no way out situation, you have to do something, right?
    No system will get BJJ results tho, as far as the comparison you're making. I train armed vs unarmed alot. It sucks. Basicly, you need to get ahold of the weapon (easier said than done) and hold onto it while you tear their head off (easier said than done, too). It's ,of course alot more complicated than the gross generalization I made but thats the part that makes it so damn hard.
    Cross training is your best bet. Find stuff you like from wrestling, BJJ, JKD, Krav Maga, and use what works. Some techniques I like are:
    Standing kimura. Like Karo Parisyan does, get the position and then try to unscrew their arm. If they have a knife try to make them stab themselves in the back. It's fun and makes them want to let go of the knife.
    Cross body arm bar. Same idea, try to break their arm by dropping to the ground as fast as possible then put alot of weight on their back and try to get them to stab themselves.
    If they have a gun.........kiss your ass goodbye, grab the barrel with both hands and crank it back toward their face. Hope they pull the trigger.
    But honestly, if you fight a guy that has a gun or a knife when you can run instead, you deserve to die slowly from the resulting wounds.
     
  7. mixicus

    mixicus Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you want to defeat an armed opponent, understand the use of that weapon system. In the world of sticks and knifes, silat and kali/arnis/escrima are highly regarded in general. There are different 'styles' within those groups. Almost all of them having you working with weps from Day 1.

    As for defense against a gun. I have never seen an unarmed martial art style that realistically deals with firearms theats. Most techniques you see have the armed attacker letting the unarmed guy get really close. Or the shooter is static with his arms fully extended. Or some dorky hostage position straight from late-night TV. Not realistic at all. There have been some defensive tactics courses that do a reasonable job with 'final options'. Most are integrated tactics for to deal with close encounters during a traffic stop or a building search.
     
  8. muerteverde

    muerteverde Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    7,226
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Bogot√°, Colombia
    Just from what I ahve heard, Krav Maga and Akido have enfsios on fighting unarmed against armed opponents. But something like Filipino knife or stick fighting might be sueful because you woudl know many coutners and how to reacta dn how to move and be comfortable wiht the weaspon itself. I know a Barazilian guy who got jumped by 3 knife wielding attackers while in Peru and his Filipino knife training saved his life and bought him the few seconds to break free and run for his life (they had him surround and backed into a corner and where stabbing first and demanding cash later).

    Coincidentally someone tried to rob me yesetrday afternoon after I signed off of sherdog. I posted detailed descriiption in mayberry a few monets ago. He said he had a knife but I don't think he did. If I had seen a knife, I would have been more likely to comply. I am a good fighter unarmed and not afraid to mix it up, but it is stupid to do so if the guy has a knife. I was able to basically talk my wya out and walk away. I am going to be carrying my own knife or otehr weapon from now though.

    To respond to the first post, not all unarmed v armed techinques involve grappling. Kicking in the balls and then stomping their face beofe you run seems like it would be effective and does not involved grapping. If I had to fight a knife carrying attacker, could not apease him or run, I would fight with wahtever came to mind and do it vic9ously. If he went down and I didn't you can be sure my foot would be all over his face. I am trained in judo and bjj but that probably isn't the first thing I would try unless he was too close or was already stabbing me and we were locked up. In that case, standing kinura is awesome (and I am good at it) and stading guillotine where you lock his knife hand behind his back.

    Your best bet is to get out of there though.
     
  9. thecas

    thecas Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    0
    At least I c sum anectodal evidence for Arnise.

    Basically the 'evidence' is the main point..Reason why Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai r what they are is bcoz of sparring ..the evolved from it and pple can c that they are effective.

    However if there cant be sparring, as in armed combat, you will never know whether it works or not.
     
  10. mixicus

    mixicus Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is sparring in silat and kali/arnis/escrima. With rattan sticks you can go full contact. The Dog Brothers (and others) do this to validate techniques on a regular basis. Typically, participants wear a light fencing mask and padded gloves to protect the hands/wrists. Even in light contact (a very subjective term when getting smacked with metal or rattan), you know if you are getting worked. Half way through a 2 day seminar, my forearms are usually heading towards one massive bruise (ice and advil are good so is letting someone else volunteer as the meat puppet).

    Sparring is a bit different with weapons than BJJ. Obviously in BJJ you can take a technique up to the point of immobilization or submission. However, when using a training blade it's hard to say if the 'cut' would have immobilize a limb or hit something imortant. But there is no doubt you'd be screwed if you miss the incoming blade and feel it solidly hit your chest. Oh and while your saying 'ouch', you get slashed twice more.
     
  11. ArmyBJJ

    ArmyBJJ MMA Training

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Krav Maga is a great style when in comes to defending a weapon (If you have to). I studied Krav Maga for a while and I would have to say by far it helped me in my law enforcement job.
     
  12. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    12,841
    Likes Received:
    1,082
    I like Arnis and the Filipino Martial Arts, but that is personal preference.

    The major difference between these arts and say BJJ is the footwork. BJJ has no real footwork like Arnis or Aikido. It is just not necessary. The BJJ counters to techniques don't require much footwork. It is usually block/absorb the strike and clinch the opponent, get the takedown, etc.

    Arnis, Aikido, and other weapon oriented arts have tons and tons of footwork. This is because footwork saves your life. Unlike in BJJ where you can catch someone's kick or cover up and take a punch, a knife attack can't be dealt with the same way as you will just get killed. The best thing about these arts is that they teach you how to use footwork to avoid weapon strikes and put yourself in a safe position where you can finish your opponent. The footwork also is essential against multiple attackers.

    BJJ and other grappling arts are still useful to know even against an armed opponent, but you definitely need a weapon oriented art to teach you how to deal with attacks of that type without getting killed. I would recommend Arnis because it is very aggressive, does fairly live sparring, and focuses heavily on realism. I also like Arnis because it teaches you to think really dirty and exploit just about every tiny advantage you can in a situation. Not very good for MMA, but great for self-defense.
     
  13. I would say two things that are fer sure gonna work..

    Jim wagner videos/seminars

    If your near a military base, go to their PT training its free, sometimes they'll allow you to work with them , sometimes not. But anyways, most of them do hand to hand combat training excersises that emphasise unamred vs. armed combat. The only down side-you have to wake up real early in the morning adn that might interfere with your job/studies/whatever.
     
  14. Mark Allen

    Mark Allen Enforcer

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Diego
    Well said above, avoid conflict with weapons, there is nothing in your wallet that cannot be replaced, including the folding green stuff. But when backed into a corner and its do or die, what do you do?
    Check for the art of Aam Ka Jutsu, an american mixed martial art started in 1968 long before they called it MMA. training includes defense/disarm from stick, knife and gun attacks. I was training one day at the BJJ school i went to, only a lowly bluebelt, but the two blackbelt owners were sparring with a knife. i watched, then they asked me if i wanted to try, i repeatedly disarmed and tapped them to boot. was alot of fun, but then again i have a blackbelt in AKJ
     
  15. mmahamzah

    mmahamzah Sheeeeit

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,071
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    uk
    u run as fast as u can never chance if he will swing and miss
     
  16. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    4,133
    Likes Received:
    6
    If you can, run obviously.

    I do think training can help in terms of general awareness and knowing what to do in a given situation so you can run.

    STAB programme seems interesting too. Based on wrestling skills, a lot grapplers may alreasdy have developed.

    http://www.openmat.dk/video/csa/stab.wmv

    I think training for weapons is something a lot of MMA'ers ignore to their detriment.
     
  17. Jason Pair

    Jason Pair Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    TN
    For sure the Filipinois arts, would be wise to look for Master of the arts in your area.
     
  18. 2om30

    2om30 Red Belt

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    8,699
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Hawai'i
    Re: filipino arts. is there a difference between, kali, arnis, and escrima? Like the length of sticks used? I always wanted to learn something with weapons.
     
  19. mixicus

    mixicus Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0
    Generally speaking kali, arnis, and escrima broad interchangeable names for the FMA's. I believe Kali is the older of the terms with terms arnis and escrima coming from a Spanish language influence (this could be the renaming of an existing style). You can find both similarities and differences in arts claiming each of those 3 names.

    The development of the styles have much to do with the regional influences and degrees of isolation. You are better off comparing traits of a specific style/school to another such as Sayoc kali v. Lamenco escrima.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.