Opinion Arguments you think are right for the wrong reasons

I'm pro-choice even though I acknowledge that abortion is obviously murder. The arguments employed to rationalize abortion are laughable but sometimes you just gotta ignore the trees and look at the forest
 
Love the thread idea. I'm always interested when people are right for the wrong reasons, or when they are wrong for better reasons than their correct opponents. It makes a nice gap that begs to be bridged and creates some of the best opportunities for learning and changing.

One that jumps out to me all the time is supporting free but deplorable speech, for some odd reason like "at least it's out in the open instead of concealed," or "all ideas should compete in the marketplace and the best will win," or "sunlight is the best disinfectant," or "exposing people to bad ideas will make them stronger," and other stupid horseshit. Those are all wrong because they are rationalizing the exposure of good people to bad ideas, and promote a naive (at best) understanding of how people - especially impressionable people - work. One of this idea's bastard children is the celebration of non-fatal bullying and abuse as "character building," which should have been mostly squashed in popular culture by the turn of the century but for the Internet.

No, no, no, no, and fuck no. Terrible ideas are a liability. Exposure to influential but damaging speech is bad. It doesn't make fewer people believe it. It makes more people believe it. Giving it a platform alongside legitimate, decent ideas accelerates the deplorable's influence, helps them reach wider audiences like teens and marks, and once that ball gets rolling it always comes down to how charismatic the deplorable person is, and how far they get before decent people put up enough of a fight to defeat it or they burn out their audience like the religious fevers in 19th century New York, but there is always damage done (Mormons lulz).

The crazy, loud racist fuck in the bar can become your leader. It happens. Detestable-but-free speech is one where we have to be right, and for the right reasons. It should be discouraged in public, it should be boycotted in the marketplace, it should be denied the sunny spot, and warned against to vulnerable people.

And here's something I hope will help clarify some of these situations. Look at the advocates for the "free speech rights" of the Alex Joneses (or for a sharper example if you're older, the David Dukes). The advocates to watch out for are the ones who are always whining about their rights but who never seem to find the energy to condemn their ideas, or who do so merely as a token gesture. It's very common around here if you're looking for it. These are the ones who want the lunatics to slip through and to damage your culture, to sow chaos and hatred, and sometimes for no other reason than their own boredom and dissatisfaction. They aren't the ACLU, in any case. They don't give a shit about learning and the free expression of ideas. They would have you locked up for yours, without batting an eye, if only some charismatic person would come along and give them a nice uniform and a sense of pride.

Thoughts cannot and should not be crimes, and we think to at least a high degree in language, and the utterance of those thoughts cannot be crimes. Only a very few select usages of speech can even be considered criminal acts, and only indirectly and after the fact. But we have to be aware that the words of the monsters and the heroes all come from the same place.

Great post. One sort of subtheme to it all is populism. I think when we talk about truth winning in the marketplace of ideas, that's really just with regard to "elites." Free trade is a good example. The public has really never gotten behind it and demagogues have been able to use it, but through high-level debates, pretty much everyone has decided that it's good. So while it's never been sold well, policy has generally followed that elite consensus, with some deviation.

And the kind of religious belief that no speech should be suppressed in any way is probably a useful corrective to the general populist opposition to free speech (I'm aware that Americans overwhelmingly support "free speech" in the abstract, but when it comes to more specific questions about Muslims, atheists, communists, Nazis, and other undesirables, that support turns out not to be that solid). But we should remember that it's not really a first principle. Free speech is important to liberals because to have a liberal society, people have to be able to tell the truth to the best of their ability, and that inevitably puts people up against entrenched power. It's vitally important to liberals that true free speech be "bigger" than the current gov't or other power structures. So it's a weird mix of pragmatically imposed rule and sacred principle. People who claim to defend it forget the practical part and thus it can be abused and undermined by people who conveniently forget the "tell the truth" aspect of it. There shouldn't be and really isn't a right to lie (note that lies that cause material harm are punished). We just mostly tolerate it because we have to in order to protect the kind of speech we want to protect.
 
I don't think gun ownership makes a huge difference either way when it comes to violent crime compared to other factors like wealth inequality or population density. That said, I still generally support gun rights.

How is gun ownership linked to inequality or population density? Are you just comparing two randomly unrelated things to make a non-point, or are you saying that if we decrease gun ownership we'll have a bigger population and more inequality of wealth? Maybe. LOL
 
How is gun ownership linked to inequality or population density? Are you just comparing two randomly unrelated things to make a non-point, or are you saying that if we decrease gun ownership we'll have a bigger population and more inequality of wealth? Maybe. LOL
That's not what I meant, I meant that violent crime is more influenced by wealth inequality and population density than it is to gun laws.
 
I don't care about pollution as it relates to climate change because we've already kicked started the carbon cycle--any reduction now wouldn't slow or reverse anything.

What we should be investing in is how we manage the side-effects of climate change. Talking about reducing emissions is like arguing over spilled milk.
 
Love the thread idea. I'm always interested when people are right for the wrong reasons, or when they are wrong for better reasons than their correct opponents. It makes a nice gap that begs to be bridged and creates some of the best opportunities for learning and changing.

One that jumps out to me all the time is supporting free but deplorable speech, for some odd reason like "at least it's out in the open instead of concealed," or "all ideas should compete in the marketplace and the best will win," or "sunlight is the best disinfectant," or "exposing people to bad ideas will make them stronger," and other stupid horseshit. Those are all wrong because they are rationalizing the exposure of good people to bad ideas, and promote a naive (at best) understanding of how people - especially impressionable people - work. One of this idea's bastard children is the celebration of non-fatal bullying and abuse as "character building," which should have been mostly squashed in popular culture by the turn of the century but for the Internet.

No, no, no, no, and fuck no. Terrible ideas are a liability. Exposure to influential but damaging speech is bad. It doesn't make fewer people believe it. It makes more people believe it. Giving it a platform alongside legitimate, decent ideas accelerates the deplorable's influence, helps them reach wider audiences like teens and marks, and once that ball gets rolling it always comes down to how charismatic the deplorable person is, and how far they get before decent people put up enough of a fight to defeat it or they burn out their audience like the religious fevers in 19th century New York, but there is always damage done (Mormons lulz).

The crazy, loud racist fuck in the bar can become your leader. It happens. Detestable-but-free speech is one where we have to be right, and for the right reasons. It should be discouraged in public, it should be boycotted in the marketplace, it should be denied the sunny spot, and warned against to vulnerable people.

And here's something I hope will help clarify some of these situations. Look at the advocates for the "free speech rights" of the Alex Joneses (or for a sharper example if you're older, the David Dukes). The advocates to watch out for are the ones who are always whining about their rights but who never seem to find the energy to condemn their ideas, or who do so merely as a token gesture. It's very common around here if you're looking for it. These are the ones who want the lunatics to slip through and to damage your culture, to sow chaos and hatred, and sometimes for no other reason than their own boredom and dissatisfaction. They aren't the ACLU, in any case. They don't give a shit about learning and the free expression of ideas. They would have you locked up for yours, without batting an eye, if only some charismatic person would come along and give them a nice uniform and a sense of pride.

Thoughts cannot and should not be crimes, and we think to at least a high degree in language, and the utterance of those thoughts cannot be crimes. Only a very few select usages of speech can even be considered criminal acts, and only indirectly and after the fact. But we have to be aware that the words of the monsters and the heroes all come from the same place.
That's more or less the point I was trying to make in the OP about it but you articulated it much more thoroughly than I did. I figured if I made the OP too long most would skip, really most did anyway I bet.
 
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