Are too many people forgeting about the clinch?

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HighestHand

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Today in sparring, I had my ass beat by some really fast guy when it came to striking. So I went in to clinch him and started controlling the fight from the clinch.

After the sparring session, I talk to some of the guys and they said something along the lines of like "Hey that was a pretty good fight between you too, but you kinda took advantage of him in the clinch, and if you didn't, he would have beat your ass."

I took some time to think about it, and the local fights that I watch, and pretty much a lot of the US fights I'm watching barely have any clinching in it. (Amateur local fights anyway, have not watched the professional ones) I think back to my sparring:

Even against the amateur fighters, who outclass me by striking, I was doing decently in the clinch. One amateur fighter had about 50 pounds on me, and a few inches taller, just tried to throw/sweep me all day and failed, while I worked to get dominant position. In my experience, the bigger/taller people that I sparred against, when clinched, just like to try to throw too much using their strength. The smaller people, have terrible clinch defense and try to get away by hunching and back pedaling.

Note that as a taller person, the clinch is one of my best weapons. With my first MT experience, I took a private with Phil Nurse and he said, practice the clinch a lot! You are a tall and lanky guy, and you will win a lot with the clinch. So I like to think I put in the effort to practice and perform decently, but I'm not like a clinch genius. I am just disappointed at the fact that as a amateur fighter, your striking AND clinch should be better than mine, not just striking.

I've been in 3 gyms in NYC. All 3 gyms had like 1-2 clinch classes the whole week, while they had over 15 regular classes.

What are your experiences and thoughts about this?
 
HighestHand said:
Today in sparring, I had my ass beat by some really fast guy when it came to striking. So I went in to clinch him and started controlling the fight from the clinch.

After the sparring session, I talk to some of the guys and they said something along the lines of like "Hey that was a pretty good fight between you too, but you kinda took advantage of him in the clinch, and if you didn't, he would have beat your ass."

I took some time to think about it, and the local fights that I watch, and pretty much a lot of the US fights I'm watching barely have any clinching in it. (Amateur local fights anyway, have not watched the professional ones) I think back to my sparring:

Even against the amateur fighters, who outclass me by striking, I was doing decently in the clinch. One amateur fighter had about 50 pounds on me, and a few inches taller, just tried to throw/sweep me all day and failed, while I worked to get dominant position. In my experience, the bigger/taller people that I sparred against, when clinched, just like to try to throw too much using their strength. The smaller people, have terrible clinch defense and try to get away by hunching and back pedaling.

Note that as a taller person, the clinch is one of my best weapons. With my first MT experience, I took a private with Phil Nurse and he said, practice the clinch a lot! You are a tall and lanky guy, and you will win a lot with the clinch. So I like to think I put in the effort to practice and perform decently, but I'm not like a clinch genius. I am just disappointed at the fact that as a amateur fighter, your striking AND clinch should be better than mine, not just striking.

I've been in 3 gyms in NYC. All 3 gyms had like 1-2 clinch classes the whole week, while they had over 15 regular classes.

What are your experiences and thoughts about this?
Click to expand...

Question: Are you from a Muay Thai gym or MMA gym?

As for fights, from what I've seen and experienced against fighters from the US (Muay Thai), alot of them come from MMA gyms so the "clinch" they do there is mostly from wrestling. Of course depending on their coach and the gym itself, they may have some basic knowledge about muay thai clinching (pummeling to get double collar, working from single collar tie, etc).
Most of these guys are more kickboxers imo than muay thai strikers. Their gyms usually have a very heavy emphasis on boxing while lacking in clinch work.

What I've said is pretty common amongst C-Class (0-3 fights) and sometimes newer B-Class fighters (4-9 fights), guys who are A-Class (10+) or compete in the Open class (20+ fights) definitely do have more clinch exp. Not thailand level, but still good regardless.
 
j123 said:
Question: Are you from a Muay Thai gym or MMA gym?

As for fights, from what I've seen and experienced against fighters from the US (Muay Thai), alot of them come from MMA gyms so the "clinch" they do there is mostly from wrestling. Of course depending on their coach and the gym itself, they may have some basic knowledge about muay thai clinching (pummeling to get double collar, working from single collar tie, etc).
Most of these guys are more kickboxers imo than muay thai strikers. Their gyms usually have a very heavy emphasis on boxing while lacking in clinch work.

What I've said is pretty common amongst C-Class (0-3 fights) and sometimes newer B-Class fighters (4-9 fights), guys who are A-Class (10+) or compete in the Open class (20+ fights) definitely do have more clinch exp. Not thailand level, but still good regardless.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm from a Muay Thai Gym, and I was specifically referring to the C and B class fighters. I did notice that the C and B class fighters have sub par clinch that I expected to be way better.

I just find it so weird when I explain to my gym friends (Who have around 3+ years experience) that MT is not MT without the clinch and they say "does the clinch really happen that often?"

I totally agree on the lack of clinch work. To the point to say that I only got advantage from clinching is like saying in MMA, "You only won because you had a better ground game and took it to the ground... If you didn't he would have beaten you at striking."
 
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Frode Falch said:
Yes the clinch is important.
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Yes I understand that, but what are your thoughts about the level of clinch work that is outside of Thailand? In my experience, (Local fights of the NYC) it is not so good.
 
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HighestHand said:
Yeah I'm from a Muay Thai Gym, and I was specifically referring to the C and B class fighters. I did notice that the C and B class fighters have sub par clinch that I expected to be way better.

I just find it so weird when I explain to my gym friends (Who have around 3+ years experience) that MT is not MT without the clinch and they say "does the clinch really happen that often?"

"Yeah, it happens as much as once every 30 seconds."

"Really? I haven't seen that in our amateur fights."

I wonder why... >.>
Click to expand...

That quote is questionable. I find it hard to believe someone hasn't seen ammy fights of newer fighters that didn't end up in a clinch fest. Unless they were competing at events where clinching is banned like in GLORY or something

If anything, it happens the most in C class. Newer fighters have horrible sense of distance, rarely does someone at that level do; Even then if they do, they're probably not really novice level (eg. boxing exp. but didn't include it in the match making process or trained since 2006 and decided to compete this year).

Bad assessment of distance + aggression + refusal to back down = clinch

So many times this happens each year at TBA (big ammy MT tournament in Iowa)
 
j123 said:
That quote is questionable. I find it hard to believe someone hasn't seen ammy fights of newer fighters that didn't end up in a clinch fest. Unless they were competing at events where clinching is banned like in GLORY or something

If anything, it happens the most in C class. Newer fighters have horrible sense of distance, rarely does someone at that level do; Even then if they do, they're probably not really novice level (eg. boxing exp. but didn't include it in the match making process or trained since 2006 and decided to compete this year).

Bad assessment of distance + aggression + refusal to back down = clinch

So many times this happens each year at TBA (big ammy MT tournament in Iowa)
Click to expand...

Wow that's the total opposite of what I noticed when I watch the newer ammy matches. They either back up and let the opponent advance, or they get into clinch distance and then continue to wail and maneuver at that distance for no regard for the clinch. Sometimes clinching is a little forced.

Perhaps, my friend doesn't realize that the clinch happens too much?



This is one example of a C class fight I found and you can see that many many times they are within clinch distance, but they either maneuver in and out at that point or they just back up. Of course, the clinch was initiated a lot too, but too many opportunities were missed. Overall though, purple shorts guy had pretty decent clinching though.

Respect to these fighters though, not taking away that they had a great fight.

EDIT: Now that I watch it again, I think I know what you are talking about, that the clinch was way too forced, and not taken advantage of. At one point, the orange shorts guy grabbed the glove and pressed onto his chest and didn't follow through the clinch, and gave purple shorts an opening. Purple guy had decent clinch though, can't say the same for other guy.
 
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HighestHand said:
Wow that's the total opposite of what I noticed when I watch the newer ammy matches. They either back up and let the opponent advance, or they get into clinch distance and then continue to wail and maneuver at that distance for no regard for the clinch. Sometimes clinching is a little forced.

Perhaps, my friend doesn't realize that the clinch happens too much?



This is one example of a C class fight I found and you can see that many many times they are within clinch distance, but they either maneuver in and out at that point or they just back up. Of course, the clinch was initiated a lot too, but too many opportunities were missed. Overall though, purple shorts guy had pretty decent clinching though.

Respect to these fighters though, not taking away that they had a great fight.

EDIT: Now that I watch it again, I think I know what you are talking about, that the clinch was way too forced, and not taken advantage of. At one point, the orange shorts guy grabbed the glove and pressed onto his chest and didn't follow through the clinch, and gave purple shorts an opening. Purple guy had decent clinch though, can't say the same for other guy.
Click to expand...


Can't stress the bolded enough.

Purple shorts has decent clinch work as you've said, being the taller fighter also helped out as well.

Clinching is also exhausting if you don't know to to breathe when in it, which might be why some are hesitant into entering it.
 
There are too many rules in Muay Thai clinch for which throws/sweeps are allowed.
 
MrJak said:
There are too many rules in Muay Thai clinch for which throws/sweeps are allowed.
Click to expand...
Sweeps and throws rake the most points, but that itself shouldn't be a deterrent to avoid it. Like Judo, the throws occur best when the uke is off balanced
 
HighestHand said:
Today in sparring, I had my ass beat by some really fast guy when it came to striking. So I went in to clinch him and started controlling the fight from the clinch.

After the sparring session, I talk to some of the guys and they said something along the lines of like "Hey that was a pretty good fight between you too, but you kinda took advantage of him in the clinch, and if you didn't, he would have beat your ass."

I took some time to think about it, and the local fights that I watch, and pretty much a lot of the US fights I'm watching barely have any clinching in it. (Amateur local fights anyway, have not watched the professional ones) I think back to my sparring:

Even against the amateur fighters, who outclass me by striking, I was doing decently in the clinch. One amateur fighter had about 50 pounds on me, and a few inches taller, just tried to throw/sweep me all day and failed, while I worked to get dominant position. In my experience, the bigger/taller people that I sparred against, when clinched, just like to try to throw too much using their strength. The smaller people, have terrible clinch defense and try to get away by hunching and back pedaling.

Note that as a taller person, the clinch is one of my best weapons. With my first MT experience, I took a private with Phil Nurse and he said, practice the clinch a lot! You are a tall and lanky guy, and you will win a lot with the clinch. So I like to think I put in the effort to practice and perform decently, but I'm not like a clinch genius. I am just disappointed at the fact that as a amateur fighter, your striking AND clinch should be better than mine, not just striking.

I've been in 3 gyms in NYC. All 3 gyms had like 1-2 clinch classes the whole week, while they had over 15 regular classes.

What are your experiences and thoughts about this?
Click to expand...

He would have kicked your ass if you didn't clinch him... but you did clinch him, so in the fight you won. The attitude that the guys you were talking to had is hugely counter productive to being a good fighter. The clinch is like the ground game in MMA, if you're not well versed in it, you lose to anyone that is.

Take advantage of your opponent the clinch all you want. Even if you're fighting under kickboxing rules, just punch and clutch Ernesto Hoost style, and get however many knees you're allowed in, at the end of the day the object of the game is to win the fight, don't play to your opponents strengths.

Personally, I've been developing my clinch game a lot more lately. I started off boxing before Muay Thai and I train at a more Thai style gym. My coach was a fighter more in the vein of Sagat, using trickier kick punch combinations like punching off a landed kick and such. So I got by pretty fine using kicks to set up my punches and vice versa (my kicks are not the best admittedly). Recently I decided that if I was to get the edge in competition I needed to start clinching as much as possible, so now I'm sparring more with the clinch in mind. I do my normal thing, kicking, punching and kneeing, but the second I get even half the chance, I'm in the clinch.

So train clinch! :D And don't just train the double collar tie, I can't stress that enough. It's very easy to counter, so I would recommend training as many other clinch positions as possible. I mentioned in a thread a couple weeks ago about cross facing with one arm and getting control of your opponents bicep with the other (and then turning out behind them) as a response to an opponents double collar tie. Work stuff like that, sweep them, knee them, elbow them, whatever you like.

Just ignore anyone that complains about you in the clinch during free and open sparring. It's not your problem that they didn't bother to learn it. :)
 
AndyMaBobs said:
He would have kicked your ass if you didn't clinch him... but you did clinch him, so in the fight you won. The attitude that the guys you were talking to had is hugely counter productive to being a good fighter. The clinch is like the ground game in MMA, if you're not well versed in it, you lose to anyone that is.

Take advantage of your opponent the clinch all you want. Even if you're fighting under kickboxing rules, just punch and clutch Ernesto Hoost style, and get however many knees you're allowed in, at the end of the day the object of the game is to win the fight, don't play to your opponents strengths.

Personally, I've been developing my clinch game a lot more lately. I started off boxing before Muay Thai and I train at a more Thai style gym. My coach was a fighter more in the vein of Sagat, using trickier kick punch combinations like punching off a landed kick and such. So I got by pretty fine using kicks to set up my punches and vice versa (my kicks are not the best admittedly). Recently I decided that if I was to get the edge in competition I needed to start clinching as much as possible, so now I'm sparring more with the clinch in mind. I do my normal thing, kicking, punching and kneeing, but the second I get even half the chance, I'm in the clinch.

So train clinch! :D And don't just train the double collar tie, I can't stress that enough. It's very easy to counter, so I would recommend training as many other clinch positions as possible. I mentioned in a thread a couple weeks ago about cross facing with one arm and getting control of your opponents bicep with the other (and then turning out behind them) as a response to an opponents double collar tie. Work stuff like that, sweep them, knee them, elbow them, whatever you like.

Just ignore anyone that complains about you in the clinch during free and open sparring. It's not your problem that they didn't bother to learn it. :)
Click to expand...
Hell yeah man, I like your attitude!
 
MadSquabbles500 said:
Are you talking about boxing or the other two?

And in KB, you can literally tie up an arm and punch him?
Click to expand...
What I mean to say is that in boxing, you cannot throw, you can only tie him up and punch.

In Muay Thai, and Kick Boxing (depending on certain rule sets) you can throw and sweep, knee, tie up his arms and punch him, etc. Certain Kick boxing rule sets do not allow you to throw or sweep.
 
HighestHand said:
What I mean to say is that in boxing, you cannot throw, you can only tie him up and punch.

In Muay Thai, and Kick Boxing (depending on certain rule sets) you can throw and sweep, knee, tie up his arms and punch him, etc. Certain Kick boxing rule sets do not allow you to throw or sweep.
Click to expand...

so in boxing you can strike if you tie up the arm or head??
 
HighestHand said:
Not in boxing, but in KB and MT, yes you can.
Click to expand...
I think that depends on how good a referee you have. Some referees just want to immediately break it, other referees (read: good) let you work out of it. Like how Golovkin punches his way out of clinches. He did it in his most recent fight to get the KO, I believe.
 
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