are the gracies religious?

ok, please tell me how these promote violence?

you said that the bible is based on a violent God. i said do you have any quotes. and you gave me none.

so, again, you are just talking out of your ass. I am not saying there is not violent passages but i am willing to read what you find and PUT IT IN CONTEXT

My agenda is that on the surface we want the same thing. we want peace. we want to be able to love one another. good will to all men.

This is THE CENTRAL MESSAGE OF CHRISTIANITY. period. so be careful what you wish for.

God telling you not to murder, rob, cheat on your spouse, love one another
this is what you are so pissed about?

what do you think happens without God? go look for yourself. look up communist russia and china
you will find out EXACTLY what happens
learn some history

anyone who takes God away from you wants that power himself.
without God it is only the POWERFUL who make the rules and say what is moral.

it has happened over and over again

so yeah, i have something to say when someone who knows absolute shit about the Bible comes in and stops yapping.

Ok, look up Japan. Godless.
Anyways, you are taking Russian history way out of context (even worse than my quote). Remember, just because the government was secular doesn't mean there were no Christians/no God there. In fact, religious activities were permitted with supervision of government agents. The biggest reason for the persecution of Christians was because the Communist government viewed churches as competition to their absolute authority. Same thing happened to other groups of people who tried to have any level of organization/influence. Remember, Stalin had a Christian background before he came up to power, and Russia was one of the most religious countries on earth at the start of WW1. Another factor to consider was that USSR consisted of 15 nations, many of which were not Christian but Muslim. And secularization was an attempt to lessen the in-fighting between smaller countries and central authority.
 
It hasn't really been that long since the New Testament was written. 2000 years or so? The idea is that Jesus is going to come back again. It's not like things are supposed to stand as they are forever and ever millions of years into the future.

Which is an odd thing to extrapolate since Genesis and the entire old testament condense millions of years down to 7 days and maybe a thousand years more before that divine guy showed up in Jerusalem.

The Gracie's speak about as much on the topic of religion as I'd ever want to hear in conjunction with grappling.
 
Which is an odd thing to extrapolate since Genesis and the entire old testament condense millions of years down to 7 days and maybe a thousand years more before that divine guy showed up in Jerusalem.

The Gracie's speak about as much on the topic of religion as I'd ever want to hear in conjunction with grappling.

The seven days is a figurative creation story that talks about stuff that happened long before humans existed.

Humans have not existed very long. The last 50,000 years or so? And how many of those years could humans even read and write?
 
Tell that to Ken Ham!

Lol trust me I wish he'd listen if I did. That stuff doesn't do Christians any good.

If it helps, here's the accepted Catholic position on the issue:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-popes-evolution-remarks-a-break-from-catholic-teaching/

Genesis not being taken literally is not something that just got invented after evolution to conveniently explain it either. St. Augustine wrote that Genesis was not literal way back in the 4th century AD. Now granted he felt that God created the whole world in an instant (St. Augustine didn't have the benefit of modern science like we do), but the clear point is that he argued that the seven days of creation was an allegorical story not to be taken literally.
 
this is an exceedingly common misapprehension that has resulted in a great deal of intellectual abuses over the years. infinity is not a quantity, were in a different metaphysical category all together. the word youre looking for is, as cantor himself elucidated, is 'transfinite', an infinite number is a contradiction in terms.

I've never suggested that "infinity" is a quantity; it is an attribute, which the set of all natural numbers has. Even if we indulge Cantor and use the term "transfinite" to describe this property, it does nothing to refute my argument. If the Universe is eternal, than you can count forwards or backwards using any unit of time and you will always be able to add another unit to its age. This is the same property that makes the set of all natural numbers "transfinite."

Cantor stubbornly refused to refer to numbers with this property as "infinite," precisely because he was a devout Christian and wanted to reserve a special metaphysical category for God. Invoking his terminology in a debate about the existence of God is therefore a circular argument. It's equivalent to saying "God must exist because Cantor said actual infinity exists because Cantor believed in God."

Substantively, you can't argue that God is required because the age of the Universe is only "transfinite," not "infinite." I've just described how a "transfinite" universe requires no beginning or end. To the extent that you believe "actual infinity" is an important metaphysical concept, you can keep it in my model. You would simply believe that the entire Multiverse represents "actual infinity" in the same sense that God does.
 
So the concept of infinity can be real in the sense that it can be proven to exist mathematically, but it's not real in the sense that anything in the world can actually achieve it.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that time will simply end at some point? (I don't mean that in a snide way at all. I'm just trying to understand your view of a finite universe)
 
Out of curiosity, do you believe that time will simply end at some point? (I don't mean that in a snide way at all. I'm just trying to understand your view of a finite universe)

I think it will. Just as the universe has a creation date, it should also have an end date. Like I said before, nothing in the universe we can observe is truly infinite. Christians believe that the world will eventually end at some point. The book of Revelation talks about that.

But just because time and the universe will end does not mean that we will end if you believe in Christianity. Going to heaven is going to be with God, and that is outside of the universe existing with completely different rules. So the fact that time and the universe will end does not affect that.
 
I've never suggested that "infinity" is a quantity

if truly so, then all else that follows is unnecessary

it is an attribute, which the set of all natural numbers has.

incorrect

Cantor stubbornly refused to refer to numbers with this property as "infinite,"

because they are not, infact, capital I Infinite. they can be modeled (ie, quantified), hence the phenomena of different transfinites with different 'sizes' (such as the set of natural numbers vs the set of real numbers).

If the Universe is eternal

finitude is an ontological necessity

Invoking his terminology in a debate about the existence of God is therefore a circular argument.

in other news, hayek is not a credible authority on austrian economics, because he argued for austrian economics (i dont think you thought this line of reasoning through very far).
 
@Balto, or anyone of faith who wants to answer

Do earlier creation myths effect the structure of your belief? For example, the flood in Gilgamesh, or the various 'son of the sun' figures that Jesus very closely resembles.
 
I think it will. Just as the universe has a creation date, it should also have an end date. Like I said before, nothing in the universe we can observe is truly infinite. Christians believe that the world will eventually end at some point. The book of Revelation talks about that.

But just because time and the universe will end does not mean that we will end if you believe in Christianity. Going to heaven is going to be with God, and that is outside of the universe existing with completely different rules. So the fact that time and the universe will end does not affect that.

you sound really stupid if you genuinely believe that, god is the greatest joke to have ever existed
 
The seven days is a figurative creation story that talks about stuff that happened long before humans existed.

Humans have not existed very long. The last 50,000 years or so? And how many of those years could humans even read and write?

It's easy to say creation in Genesis is just a parable, but that's because we find that notion laughable with current scientific understanding. Go back far enough and it wasn't a parable. Either way, it still glazes over millions of years where god was supposedly chillin. I see no reason why millions of years into the future can't be on the table for revelation. Or is it that the concept of Space Jesus doesn't seem right if we're inhabiting Mars or Alpha Centauri or some ship floating in the vastness of space?

Biblical history basically lines up with a creation myth plus a few hundred years before the beginning of Judaism. Writing dates back about 3 to 4 thousand years prior to that. So to extrapolate anything from that seems unlikely to be accurate.

Anyway, I'd rather not be going down this rabbit hole again, so adieu.
 
@Balto, or anyone of faith who wants to answer

Do earlier creation myths effect the structure of your belief? For example, the flood in Gilgamesh, or the various 'son of the sun' figures that Jesus very closely resembles.

With Gilgamesh, I think maybe that it is talking about the same flood as in Genesis. Obviously both are written way later than the events and legendary in style so it's tough to tell exactly what went down. I don't think we have evidence that the whole land mass of the earth flooded around that time, but there could have been a weird flood over that area in the Middle East that got passed down over time.

So I guess I would say I'm not really sure, but I'm open to it. Like I said about Genesis not needing to be literal, I don't see a need to believe in a literal flood, but I'm open to the idea at least since we don't have any scientific evidence contradicting it. I don't think it would be that weird if there was a flood.

I don't think the Jesus story is really that close to earlier pagan stories. I know there are definitely some pagan traditions that got absorbed into Christianity, but I don't think the fundamental story is necessarily derived from them. I think it is more stuff like Christmas being December 25 (we really have no idea what day Jesus was born), etc.
 
It's easy to say creation in Genesis is just a parable, but that's because we find that notion laughable with current scientific understanding. Go back far enough and it wasn't a parable. Either way, it still glazes over millions of years where god was supposedly chillin. I see no reason why millions of years into the future can't be on the table for revelation. Or is it that the concept of Space Jesus doesn't seem right if we're inhabiting Mars or Alpha Centauri or some ship floating in the vastness of space?

Biblical history basically lines up with a creation myth plus a few hundred years before the beginning of Judaism. Writing dates back about 3 to 4 thousand years prior to that. So to extrapolate anything from that seems unlikely to be accurate.

Anyway, I'd rather not be going down this rabbit hole again, so adieu.

How far back do you have to go to find it's not a parable? I went back 1600 years in my example where a well known religious writer called it a parable, which is a long time before we had the benefit of our current scientific understanding that makes the literal notion laughable.

And concerning the millions of years, I guess you are correct that I can't say the time. I don't know it. But it is supposed to happen while humans are still around, and since it's hard for me to imagine humans existing for millions of years (we've only got 50,000 so far and keep coming close to blowing ourselves up), I think it's reasonable for me to guess that it will probably be sooner than that.
 
It is easy for an unsaved person to deceive himself into thinking he has an intellectual reason why he has rejected Jesus Christ. The truth is that the real reason is always a moral one. They love their sin more than God.

Everyone worships something. You will either worship Jesus Christ or you will invent a god in your mind that accepts you. One is real. The other is false.
 
Probably the biggest faith part is being able to accept that something like the Christian story of Jesus could even be possible in the first place.

I think that the path from Christianity to Atheism requires a similar leap of faith. A person has to start out by accepting the possibility that there is no God and that the Bible was simply written by men.

Instead, most Christians look at the Bible and think to themselves: Can I have faith in this? They are already so culturally conditioned to accept belief in the Bible as legitimate, that they don't really subject it to the same level of skepticism they would apply to other texts, like the Qu'ran or the Book of Mormon.

I would invite all the Christians reading this to take a step back and consider things from an abstract perspective. Instead of analyzing whether the Bible is true, let's consider the legitimacy of a hypothetical religious text. What attributes would we expect if the book was divinely inspired? What potential signs might make us suspect that it was written by ancient men without God's help?

IF DIVINE

On the most basic level, the two attributes we would expect of a divine text are: (1) Moral Consistency; and (2) Scientific Accuracy.

1. We expect the book to be consistent, because it purports to contain the word of an eternal God. Obviously, if it's going to be transcribed by men, there might be some minor anomalies. But the primary doctrine should remain constant throughout, because it's really coming from God. God invented morality, so we should see him consistently applying his moral rules, right?

2. We expect the book to be accurate, because God knows everything about the Universe that he created. If he is explaining that Universe to humans, then he shouldn't make mistakes when he describes it. And if he is bothering to explain it to humans, he probably will cover the most basic aspects of things like how he created animals or what's out there in the rest of the giant cosmos he built. He might use terms that ancient people could understand, but the substance of what he says should be accurate. The more that science discovers about the Universe, the more it should confirm the information in this book from God.

IF NOT DIVINE

If the book was written by ancient men without help from God, we would expect exactly the opposite. It will likely be: (1) Morally Inconsistent; and (2) Scientifically Inaccurate.

1. If the book was written without God, then it will be morally inconsistent because throughout history human morals have constantly been in flux. We would expect the human authors to apply the prevailing moral standards of their time, and those standards will progressively change. The authors don't have any actual revealed truths from God to rely on, so there won't be a consistent logic to the morality that the book describes. The biggest differences will probably be between the oldest and newest parts, because in the time between them morality would have had the most time to be transformed by social progress.

2. If the book was written without God, then it will only reflect the state of scientific knowledge that was available to the ancient human authors. God will not be revealing any actual divine truths to these men, so they will probably make assumptions about the universe that later generations are able to disprove. Science will make discoveries that outright contradict the substantive claims of the text, just like it disproves the ideas of so many ancient thinkers.

WHICH IS THE BIBLE?

I won't go into great detail here, because everybody can consider this question for themselves. But in my opinion, the two glaring weaknesses in the bible are: (1) the extreme change in morality between the Old and New Testament; and (2) God's failure to disclose that he made us from animals. To me, those are huge red flags.
 
I think that the path from Christianity to Atheism requires a similar leap of faith. A person has to start out by accepting the possibility that there is no God and that the Bible was simply written by men.

WHICH IS THE BIBLE?

I won't go into great detail here, because everybody can consider this question for themselves. But in my opinion, the two glaring weaknesses in the bible are: (1) the extreme change in morality between the Old and New Testament; and (2) God's failure to disclose that he made us from animals. To me, those are huge red flags.

I think that first part is pretty insightful. The God/no God question does guide all the rest. It is too hard for me to believe there is no God (based on what I posted earlier). To others, they believe the opposite. And it is pretty hard to change.

To the two weaknesses you suggested, I think the first weakness is actually a strength. It shows how Jesus is a better way and makes Christians appreciate the gift more when placed in context.

The second weakness you suggested I don't see that way either. The exact mechanism of creation is not really mentioned. There is a rough order to things and a seven day allegorical timeframe to chunk it up, but overall it is very, very general to explain the creation of something as complex as all life on earth as we know it. So not mentioning evolution does not seem weird to me at all.

The main takeaway I get from the creation story is that God created man in his image, which is again another allegory. I don't believe God literally looks like a skinny white dude like me. The allegory of creating man in his image is normally interpreted that humans, unique from the animals, have the ability to choose right and wrong.
 
I think that first part is pretty insightful. The God/no God question does guide all the rest. It is too hard for me to believe there is no God (based on what I posted earlier). To others, they believe the opposite. And it is pretty hard to change.

I agree it's hard to change anyone's mind on this issue. I don't expect to change your mind, although I have enjoyed discussing these issues with you.

But you are a very intelligent guy, and in every other context I've witnessed your impeccable common sense. So I will make one last point, which you can take or leave as you see fit:

When I described the general attributes of a divine book versus a non-divine book, you didn't dispute them. Instead, you chose to frame the issue in terms of Christianity and the Bible. The reason I tried to frame the question in generic terms was to decrease everyone's emotional investment in the answer.

So, for example, do you agree that in the abstract a divine book is likely to be morally consistent while a non-divine book is likely to be morally inconsistent? I explained why I believe this is a valid inference. And I think that if you imagine a holy book from Antarctica in which the first half depicted a vengeful and violent God, while the second one depicted a loving and caring God, it would probably make you skeptical.

But when you see the same attribute in Christianity, you engage in special pleading by identifying this moral inconsistency as further proof of how special Jesus was. I'm not faulting you, because it's hard to look at anything objectively when it comes to religion. But would you take an Antartican seriously if he said that his God had been cruel in the old days just so that we would appreciate it when he was nice later on? Would it make sense to you that a loving God would engage in mass murder repeatedly, just to prove a point to humanity?

As to the second point: Once again, wouldn't it seem convenient if the book from Antartica only included the science and geography known to the tribe that wrote it down? Wouldn't it be strange to you if some of that information was inaccurate, even though it was supposed to have come from God?

Maybe our Antartic friend would say that it wasn't meant to be taken literally. But wouldn't that also seem kind of convenient for explaining the absence of any advanced scientific, mathematical, geographic, or cosmological information in a text from God? If God was going to bother explaining the Genesis of humans, why would he use such substantively misleading metaphors?

After a while, you might feel like your Antartic friend really really wanted to believe in his book.
 
Either god is the kind of guy who saves everyone or we are all mostly, probably, fucked. If there is no god, then might as well do whatever you want. Some people like to worship.

Either way, I'm not for dancing in the cargo cult.
 
It is easy for an unsaved person to deceive himself into thinking he has an intellectual reason why he has rejected Jesus Christ. The truth is that the real reason is always a moral one. They love their sin more than God.

Everyone worships something. You will either worship Jesus Christ or you will invent a god in your mind that accepts you. One is real. The other is false.

Your arguments remind me of this.

[YT]xmuzYQsH7O4[/YT]
 
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