Anti-religious question

Punishing the rest of humanity as a consequence is not commensurate with what Adam and Eve did...for the crime of being curious and being cajoled

Ok. I dont mean this in an arrogant or combative way but there is a lot to the Bible and God that you would need to learn to gain a clear understanding of both.

The points you make show that you simply lack an understanding. I would provide it but I'd just be repeating myself and you seem invested in your view. We can agree to disagree.
 
im willing, thats why im asking you to point to me the monumental unhuman suffereing he went throuh during his preaching life. Ive read the NT quite a few times, not from cover to cover, I went to a catholic school from age 7 to 17, unless you went to a catholic school, ive probably been to church 100 times more that you have, and Im sure as hell dont remember anything about jesus being a slave, prisoner, or going through a living hell during his preaching days (im strictly talking before the romans caught him), so again, may be I am missing something, thats why im asking you to simple pointing me towards the right direction, so I can go and read some of what you call "suffering"

Jesus went day after day preaching in remote places without food, water, or sleep, all while denying himself. People laughed at him and ridiculed him, and his closes friends didn't understand him, and when he needed them the most they were not there, and they finally deserted him when he was captured.

How can you not appreciate that someone who is living a selfless life for the sake of others is a difficult existence? If you don't see that, you simply don't want to.
 
Jesus went day after day preaching in remote places without food, water, or sleep, all while denying himself. People laughed at him and ridiculed him, and his closes friends didn't understand him, and when he needed them the most they were not there, and they finally deserted him when he was captured.

How can you not appreciate that someone who is living a selfless life for the sake of others is a difficult existence? If you don't see that, you simply don't want to.

Very well put
 
Take quantum mechanics as a better example. Discussions of quantum mechanics are typically prefaced with warnings about how weird and contradictory things seem at the quantum level. In other words, we are dealing with a field of knowledge that, not only is impossible for our five senses to apprehend, but that contradicts nearly everything we experience in our normal day to day world as mediated through our senses. There is nothing empirical, in the everyday-joe sense in which that philosophy was originally formulated, here. Same goes for Hubble space telescope photography and associated findings, radio astronomy and its findings, the field of genetics and its findings, and so on. We are no longer in the realm of the empirical here: only with the use of very expensive and highly specialized equipment, and years of requisite training, could any of us ever hope to even come close to assenting to the findings of modern science in any proximately empirical way.

If by "success" you mean something that provides the driving engine for societal progress, look in any history book. All past societies had technical entities that generated propserity and advanced civilization. Nothing needs to be written. Unless you mean to say that modernity somehow is uniquely better at it. In which case, I'd ask you to provide the criteria on which you base that judgment. I mean, assuming we will be addressing the question rationally and not, in a sort of knee-jerk way, proclaiming that modernity has so far outstripped past accomplishments that it is beyond comparison. In which case, being a historian, I would invite you to consider the fact that all past cultures have held similar views of themselves and their accomplishments. (I'm not sure what you mean by "Issue with the scientific method": I don't recall having raised such an issue).

Yes, it's a great example. I can provide a display of quantum weirdness with just a cathode ray tube and some cardboard. You miss the point entirely. It's not that I think we need to do that, but that it can be done. It is the pure difference between science and philosophy. It's repeatable, verifiable.

By success I mean the success of the scientific method in leading to our current far far far far better understanding of the universe than we did before, say Galileo. Further, your posts insist over and over again I am saying philosophy has no place alongside science. I have said no such thing. One informs the other and vice versa. But they are wholly and completely different.
 
Ok. I dont mean this in an arrogant or combative way but there is a lot to the Bible and God that you would need to learn to gain a clear understanding of both.

The points you make show that you simply lack an understanding. I would provide it but I'd just be repeating myself and you seem invested in your view. We can agree to disagree.

Honestly, I don't think you and I ever discussed this aspect of "original sin."


But cool...

**shrugs.
 
It makes sense because satan's goal has always been to supplant Yahweh as god over us. So it shouldn't be surprising at all that we see a lot of cultures and traditions look toward him as god. That is his goal and deception from the beginning.

yeah, but the Yahweh god is preaching multiple things at once that are at odds with one another. The Serpent is simply saying do as you like with your body and the fruit of the earth, the Yahweh god is saying worship me and don't enjoy the bounty of the earth. Sounds like a controlling entity to me.

one seems like a friend of humanity, the other seems like a human like force projecting and manipulating for it's own gains. Notice how there is never an explanation as to why "God" needs our adoration constantly.

It's very offensive to some people, but at times God in the bible seems extremely childish and very malevolent.
 
Jesus went day after day preaching in remote places without food, water, or sleep, all while denying himself. People laughed at him and ridiculed him, and his closes friends didn't understand him, and when he needed them the most they were not there, and they finally deserted him when he was captured.

How can you not appreciate that someone who is living a selfless life for the sake of others is a difficult existence? If you don't see that, you simply don't want to.

hmmm

he went to remote places? like where? he lived in the old mesopotamia, where did go that was sooo remote?

this is all you got?

People laughed at him and ridiculed him, and his closes friends didn't understand him, and when he needed them the most they were not there

THIS IS WHAT YOU CALLED A SELF SACRIFICED LIFE??? lmfo...

how about 7 million jews in between 1930s?
how bout 1 million chinese peole starving to death?
how about millions of african children having to walk 10 miles a day to carry some dirty ass water to their family?

and you tell me this dude that walked around a bunch of nutthuggers who thought he was god himself had it rough because people mocked at him? really, and holy shit his friends werent there for him... well since you live in canada, im sure you think these are real problems, but hey just a reminder, more than half the population in the world lives every single day under the like of poverty, millions of africansdie of starvation in africa alone, but yeah not having your friends around and being mocked is tougher than that...

you should really get out of canada and get a sense of reality.
 
Dude, believe what you want, I don't know why you would press me to answer, when you (and I) knew full well you would crap on whatever I said. Fortunately, I was well aware of this and didn't spend any time in actually pulling up scriptures.
 
Really? Im aware that you don't believe the biblical narrative but surely you understand it enough to answer Sangs post? You strike me as someone who understands the basic biblical concepts.

There are plenty of interpretations and personal opinions about the subject, but typically when confronted with something that can't be objectively answered, "God works in mysterious ways" is the go to answer. Even Christians can't all agree with specific points within the Bible.
 
There are plenty of interpretations and personal opinions about the subject, but typically when confronted with something that can't be objectively answered, "God works in mysterious ways" is the go to answer. Even Christians can't all agree with specific points within the Bible.

I've seen "God works in mysterious ways" be used as a strawman a lot of times. Sometimes people just don't know. Is there something wrong with not being able to answer a question, especially when speaking about the concept of infinity?
 
I've seen "God works in mysterious ways" be used as a strawman a lot of times. Sometimes people just don't know. Is there something wrong with not being able to answer a question, especially when speaking about the concept of infinity?

No, nothing wrong with that. Just like there shouldn't be anything wrong with questioning. I do think anyone who puts something as important as their entire faith system towards a specific religion, should do their best to research and question everything as much as possible. Information and knowledge are the keys to the universe. But many are brought up in "traditional" house holds, where the very questioning is considered blasphemous.

When one can't come up with an answer, it breaks down to a philosophical discussion. The hypotheticals and what not. And that's fine.
 
No, nothing wrong with that. Just like there shouldn't be anything wrong with questioning. I do think anyone who puts something as important as their entire faith system towards a specific religion, should do their best to research and question everything as much as possible. Information and knowledge are the keys to the universe. But many are brought up in "traditional" house holds, where the very questioning is considered blasphemous.

When one can't come up with an answer, it breaks down to a philosophical discussion. The hypotheticals and what not. And that's fine.

I agree with everything here, I just don't understand where the "God works in mysterious ways" comes in.

If an eternal deity exists, it should be obvious that we cannot fully understand him, and pointing that out shouldn't be seen as a fallacy.
 
I've seen "God works in mysterious ways" be used as a strawman a lot of times. Sometimes people just don't know. Is there something wrong with not being able to answer a question, especially when speaking about the concept of infinity?

do you believe punishing the rest of humanity for the actions of Adam and Eve is fair? rational? just?
 
do you believe punishing the rest of humanity for the actions of Adam and Eve is fair? rational? just?

God works in mysterious ways.

Just kidding, I don't think it's a punishment, I think it's the natural progression. Considering it a punishment misses the point, imo.
 
I agree with everything here, I just don't understand where the "God works in mysterious ways" comes in.

If an eternal deity exists, it should be obvious that we cannot fully understand him, and pointing that out shouldn't be seen as a fallacy.

Well, it's not just when talking about eternity, but other things. Like the sexuality of Adam and Eve before the Fall. The fact that the whole Christian religion, and the concept of family and husband/wife, is based on the original sin, and without it there would be no Bible. The philosophical debate between God having an actual hand in things (creation, the flood, fate and destiny, etc.) vs. natural coincidence and free will. Many different contradictions and catch 22s in the Bible, but I don't take the Bible literally. It's those that do, who these questions are for.

God works in mysterious ways.

Just kidding, I don't think it's a punishment, I think it's the natural progression. Considering it a punishment misses the point, imo.

Sure it's a punishment, it's probably the most important punishment that was laid out for us. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were immortal beings who possessed everything (seemingly) that they would ever need. After the Fall, they were punished with death and painful birth, which would last for the rest of time as long as humans reproduce. It's only a natural progression if you believe in natural progressions :P When it comes Genesis and the creation, I don't see any natural progression - only God's will.

I ponder why God chose certain times to do things. Why flood the planet at *that* moment? Why send Jesus at *that* time? And why hasn't there been a single Godly miracle since?
 
God works in mysterious ways.

Just kidding, I don't think it's a punishment, I think it's the natural progression. Considering it a punishment misses the point, imo.

seriously LOL at your first sentence....well played...

what do you mean by natural progression?

Thanks for answering.
 
seriously LOL at your first sentence....well played...

what do you mean by natural progression?

Thanks for answering.

Its a natural progression like touching a hot stove and getting burnt is. You wouldn't call that a punishment would you?
 
Yes, it's a great example. I can provide a display of quantum weirdness with just a cathode ray tube and some cardboard. You miss the point entirely. It's not that I think we need to do that, but that it can be done. It is the pure difference between science and philosophy. It's repeatable, verifiable.
I'd like to see that display. Isn't your point, further, that it suffices that someone can do such experiments? And that this someone doing so in some way suffices or is a stand-in--or should be so--for everyone else? That's what I'm getting out of your remarks. If I'm at all correct about that, then maybe the distinction between science and philosophy you wish to draw will be lost on the majority of mankind as well; it may be for them an academic distinction that doesn't have much bearing on real life.
By success I mean the success of the scientific method in leading to our current far far far far better understanding of the universe than we did before, say Galileo.
And how does this better understanding manifest itself? And by what metrics do you measure its ostensible superiority? About the only ways I can think of to test it would involve time travel: go back to, say, the 15th century and ask people about their quality of life and whether they think their perspective on the universe seems stunted or wanting somehow. Then ask moderns the same sets of questions and compare the results. I admit to engaging in total conjecture about the results, but my supposition is that both ancient and modern respondents would answer in much the same way. Short of that sort of hard data, I tend to consider assessments of this sort entirely subjective. In any case it cannot escape modern bias which, as I said, is well attested in historical records: every age has always tended to view themselves and their accomplishments as far superior to all that preceded them. And later generations, looking back on them as poor, benighted souls, tend to laugh at their self-assessment. I expect the exact same thing will play out in the future regarding our present generation, don't you?
Further, your posts insist over and over again I am saying philosophy has no place alongside science. I have said no such thing. One informs the other and vice versa. But they are wholly and completely different.
I've gotten the impression that, among other things, you have said that science is not influenced by philosophy: was I incorrect in drawing that inference? That's what I saw myself as arguing against and is something that might be construed as me arguing that philosophy does have place alongside science. Anyway, I'll go back and re-read my posts with these thoughts in mind. I am not inclined to go as far as you and insist that they are wholly and completely different, though.
 
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