Anti-religious question

Lol ok



Touching stove = eating from the tree.

Getting burnt = getting kicked out.

No. God never made any mention of them getting kicked out. How were they to know that was a legit consequence?



Then why ask?

Because I want to know if you use that same rationale for thinking in everyday life, or you make special pleading in the case for the Lord Almighty.
 
If they had all of the knowledge, wouldn't they have been able to instill it into their children, and so forth? It seems like advancements in technology, literature, etc. could have been streamlined at a much quicker pace if that were the case. Even after being kicked out of paradise, I'm sure they retained some of the knowledge, considering they knew literally everything there is to know. But they were the equivalent of cavemen when it came to writing down information and passing it down.

I somehow hit enter before finishing the sentence. So I didn't mean they had all knowledge in existence hence the tree of knowledge they were not supposed to eat from. But they had all of the knowledge necessary to make a clear and informed decision in regards to obeying or disobeying.
 
*Looks at OP

Well, there it is... The dumbest thing I'll read all day. That is, if I don't see a Leklok post.

It's always amusing to see People who are Religious but seem to know how ridiculous their belief system is try to grapple with that and project it onto those of us who aren't brainwashed...

"Wait, so you believe in Science and Reason?! Well, then YOU'RE Religious too!"

No, we're not, moron. Believe in all the nonsense your feeble mind can hold, but don't dare project your shortcomings onto me or any other rational thinker.
 
No. God never made any mention of them getting kicked out. How were they to know that was a legit consequence?

Ok, then switch "getting kicked out" with "dying". I don't think its God's duty to inform them of every detail. He gave them the broad instructions and consequences. I'm comfortable with that.

Because I want to know if you use that same rationale for thinking in everyday life, or you make special pleading in the case for the Lord Almighty.

Huh? Explain please.
 
*Looks at OP

Well, there it is... The dumbest thing I'll read all day. That is, if I don't see a Leklok post.

It's always amusing to see People who are Religious but seem to know how ridiculous their belief system is try to grapple with that and project it onto those of us who aren't brainwashed...

"Wait, so you believe in Science and Reason?! Well, then YOU'RE Religious too!"

No, we're not, moron. Believe in all the nonsense your feeble mind can hold, but don't dare project your shortcomings onto me or any other rational thinker.

There is nothing irrational about pondering the existence of states of being beyond known physical reality. Science does this constantly.

Religious customs are ridiculous in many cases, the core ideas of the possibility of higher forms of consciousness or different states of reality isn't ridiculous at all, which is the core of most religious philosophy.
 
Right, but he only knew he was God by through faith. The same thing we are supposed to use.



But Jesus took on all sickness and suffering. So he experienced the suffering of those African children.

You've got a lot of balls talking about African's suffering when your Religion has literally massacred the people of that Continent by preaching against condoms in the most AIDS ravaged place on planet Earth.
 
Ok, then switch "getting kicked out" with "dying". I don't think its God's duty to inform them of every detail. He gave them the broad instructions and consequences. I'm comfortable with that.

Do you think Adam and Eve were sexual pre-Fall, and had the ability to conceive children with immortality? Or is the concept of family born from sin?
 
Do you think the Jesus philosophy can be summed up into those two things? Not trying to argue, just honestly asking. Its not like I have all the answers.

Personally, I don't see any good reason to love others if they don't deserve it. It can actually be VERY detrimental to your well being if you love the wrong people, cruel people, people who don't love back and are conditioned only to take and not give. As you said, the world is full of hate, therefore such people are plenty.

The same goes for giving. I don't see why I should give anything to anyone. I mean I would give, but only to people who want to integrate into society and eventually give back themselves. Giving to people who don't want to be part of the system is VERY bad for your own survival.

So in both things, love and charity, are great things, but only if they are tempered and moderated by reason. Something with Jesus never touched upon. So basically you have a philosophy that lacks the most important thing in our existence.

I hope you see where I am coming from and don't take this as an personal attack.

This is why its dangerous to do things according to human reasoning. Look what we come up with. According to this human reasoning its bad to love unconditionally or give with out receiving. We say we should judge people based on what we can gleam from the outside and without understanding. We shoudl only give to those who want to be part of the "system", whatever that is.

This is dangerous thinking and is why the world is the way it is. Saku says there are hateful people in the world. Well duh, thats what happens when you only love those who love back or give to those who give back. Love is a selfess act and selfless emotion...or at least should be. If everyone treated it that way then there would be much less conflict, poverty, and death....just like Jesus said.
 
Ok, then switch "getting kicked out" with "dying". I don't think its God's duty to inform them of every detail. He gave them the broad instructions and consequences. I'm comfortable with that.

Then who's duty was it?!? All they know is what God has told them.


Huh? Explain please.

I want to know if you would blame someone for being "tricked" into disobedience.
 
You've got a lot of balls talking about African's suffering when your Religion has literally massacred the people of that Continent by preaching against condoms in the most AIDS ravaged place on planet Earth.

Lmao cmon Buk
 
I want to know if you would blame someone for being "tricked" into disobedience.

Being tricked is part of being disobedient. Whether you take this story literally or figuratively, the point is that they did not follow the commandments of God, and as such, were disobedient by definition. It was this disobedience, however it came, that was wrong.
 
TCK is going fucking insane once more... Taking the genesis literally lmfao...

but ok...

Jesus was an ok dude, I think christiany at his core has very good teachings for human kind.

then again, going back to "jesus" suffering... Gtfo, he was tortured, but a loooooot more people through history we tortured far worst for ideals and for religion. So stop overrating what mythical jesus did...
 
then again, going back to "jesus" suffering... Gtfo, he was tortured, but a loooooot more people through history we tortured far worst for ideals and for religion. So stop overrating what mythical jesus did...

If you believe the account, Jesus did more than just die, he also had to sacrifice his life. It wasn't just in death that he sacrificed, it was in life as well. People have had worse deaths than Jesus, I think that misses the point.
 
It's clear but not valid. The parallel does not add to the discussion in the sense that with the correct equipment and training I can go and redo any experiment and see if I get the same result as all the other people who have done it and draw my own conclusions therefrom. That's neither belief (in the sense of taking it on faith) nor myth.
This seems to me an invalid argument because it would be impracticable--though very enlightening and fruitful, I presume--for you, individually, to redo all those experiments. That doesn't nullify the fact that you likely do not undertake such an endeavor, apart from the pragmatic difficulties, because a system of institutional trust is in play. Such trust formerly was thought of under the aegis of faith, namely faith that the religious institution in which one was enrolled was trusted as a source of right teaching and thought. Perhaps it's called something different now, but its character is quite similar. By narrowing focus to a fixation on just certain procedural details, such as many speaking on behalf of the natural sciences these days do, cultural, institutional, ideological, and philosophical factors can be excluded. For some, this provides a satisfying accounting of the modern enterprise of science. For others, it will seem shallow and insufficient.
As far as empiricism itself is concerned I don't agree. There is no denying the result of an observation or experiment. It's fact. You look at the spectrum of the light from a star and it tells you what elements are present in that star. That's not philosophy or anti-religion; it's just a fact. I have already explained in this thread the purpose to which empirical observation is put so I'm not repeating myself but it has nothing to do with being anti religion or pro philosophy. If you want to suggest that there is a different model for scientific inquiry that would be equally successful, then I can't wait for your best selling book to come out and explain it. I don't think such a thing exists but you're implying that's because I've closed my mind to other approaches. This is just silly. This is the scientific method: you hypothesize, the Earth is round(-ish), you observe, say by going around it, you observe that other objects in space above a certain size are also round and smaller bodies have random shapes; you draw the conclusion that the reason is that there is sufficient gravity to cause the Earth to assume the shape with the least surface area (extremely simplified but you get the idea). Where is the philosophy? Where is the issue with the scientific method?
I'm not sure what you're not agreeing with. If it's the impact of the empirical school of philosophers on modern science, you'd need to make a case for that if you're looking for some degree of assent from me. If you stick to natural sciences circles you may be able to get away with ignoring or minimizing that impact. But, with that sort of attitude, I would avoid trying to move in philosophical or other humanities circles if I were you. (To state what may be obvious to some, the original form of empiricism dictated that only phenomena mediated through the five senses can result in valid knowledge.)

The discussion thus gets back to the earlier point about conducting experiments in order to prove to oneself the verity of various scientific theories. The fact of the matter is that conducting many, many such experiments is now far beyond the means of any but the most wealthy of research institutions. You seem to be hearkening back to the day of the 18th century gentleman scientist who conducted experiments in his liesure in his personal lab. If all experiments related to current scientific knowledge were testable by this means then, yes, perhaps most any everyday joe could convince himself of their verity. But testing many of the current scientific notions is so far beyond the reach of the average person there is no way he could, through experience mediated through his five senses, assent to them. If empiricism is at stake here, it's a very rarefied form of empiricism--one in which yoou trust, not what is mediated through your five senses, but what is mediated through the senses of some authoritative figure and, usually, the apparatus he/she uses to augment his/her senses.

The color spectrum emitted by burning elements is an armchair experiment accessible to many, though acquiring and operating a telescope is something of which only a small minority would ever be capable. An even smaller segment of that minority would be capable of viewing, and even less of analyzing, the spectrum of light the sighted star emits.

Take quantum mechanics as a better example. Discussions of quantum mechanics are typically prefaced with warnings about how weird and contradictory things seem at the quantum level. In other words, we are dealing with a field of knowledge that, not only is impossible for our five senses to apprehend, but that contradicts nearly everything we experience in our normal day to day world as mediated through our senses. There is nothing empirical, in the everyday-joe sense in which that philosophy was originally formulated, here. Same goes for Hubble space telescope photography and associated findings, radio astronomy and its findings, the field of genetics and its findings, and so on. We are no longer in the realm of the empirical here: only with the use of very expensive and highly specialized equipment, and years of requisite training, could any of us ever hope to even come close to assenting to the findings of modern science in any proximately empirical way.

If by "success" you mean something that provides the driving engine for societal progress, look in any history book. All past societies had technical entities that generated propserity and advanced civilization. Nothing needs to be written. Unless you mean to say that modernity somehow is uniquely better at it. In which case, I'd ask you to provide the criteria on which you base that judgment. I mean, assuming we will be addressing the question rationally and not, in a sort of knee-jerk way, proclaiming that modernity has so far outstripped past accomplishments that it is beyond comparison. In which case, being a historian, I would invite you to consider the fact that all past cultures have held similar views of themselves and their accomplishments. (I'm not sure what you mean by "Issue with the scientific method": I don't recall having raised such an issue).
Anyway, it seems pretty clear we've been discussing different things since my purpose ITT was to show the OP to be nonsensical and I believe I have done that. I have conceded there is a place for philosophy but it is not the same as science, as the OP attempted to assert. End of story.
Fair enough. If you ever want a more free-form and wide-ranging discussion of these matters, I'm usually game. Whether I'll be able to again find time for it is another issue :)
 
Being tricked is part of being disobedient. Whether you take this story literally or figuratively, the point is that they did not follow the commandments of God, and as such, were disobedient by definition. It was this disobedience, however it came, that was wrong.

and because the couple were tricked by satan, he sent the whole fucking race to hell? he doomed humans to live a horrible life on planet earth where people cn suffer from multiple illness nd horrible tragedies humans go through in life...

hmmm seems like and all loving god.
 
If you believe the account, Jesus did more than just die, he also had to sacrifice his life.

this is slightly unrelated, but he didnt have to.

god just made that rule up for some reason. thats always confused me. christians think jesus died for the sins of mankind. why was his death considered satisfactory payment by god? why did god require payment in the first place, if he gave man the ability to sin, AND knew that they would sin before their creation? yet.....he created us with sinful weaknesses anyway.


It wasn't just in death that he sacrificed, it was in life as well. People have had worse deaths than Jesus, I think that misses the point.
 
You've got a lot of balls talking about African's suffering when your Religion has literally massacred the people of that Continent by preaching against condoms in the most AIDS ravaged place on planet Earth.

Your temper tantrums are coming off as really girly
 
Being tricked is part of being disobedient. Whether you take this story literally or figuratively, the point is that they did not follow the commandments of God, and as such, were disobedient by definition. It was this disobedience, however it came, that was wrong.

As a figurative story I get it. It's a way to explain the existence of evil.

So God creates creatures who happen to be disobedient, and there's nothing more God hates than disobedience. So he banishes them and makes child birth painful. To me that makes God look petty.
 
and because the couple were tricked by satan, he sent the whole fucking race to hell? he doomed humans to live a horrible life on planet earth where people cn suffer from multiple illness nd horrible tragedies humans go through in life...

hmmm seems like and all loving god.

The implication is that they were no longer perfect, again, by definition, since they disobeyed.
 
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