Another BJJ doesn't work video

[kintana]

I admit I actually like this video.



A bit of background, I am a BJJ black belt and I do think BJJ can work in the street.

Why do I like this video?

Because it is the most obvious thing BJJ students forget, the fight does not need to stay on the ground once you go to the ground.

Danaher illustrates that same point in this video:



I never learned the importance of control and takedowns until my first MMA fight, when I realized that it was harder than I thought keeping someone on the ground.

Still love BJJ

 

[DoctorTaco]

People assume bjj is all about playing off your back and then go on to explain why it won’t work in the streets, etc.

I’ve long said that mount, knee on belly, back mount, and other top positions are great for self defense. You can control the other guy, fire off strikes, look for chokes, detain the attacker, and most importantly you can quickly stand up and disengage

 

[ChickenBrother]

People assume bjj is all about playing off your back and then go on to explain why it won’t work in the streets, etc.

I’ve long said that mount, knee on belly, back mount, and other top positions are great for self defense. You can control the other guy, fire off strikes, look for chokes, detain the attacker, and most importantly you can quickly stand up and disengage

TBF that's the point of the OP video. Top position is where you have the most optionality to stand back up or engage on the ground. But to get there you need to take other guy down first or sweep him from guard. And you're not doing the latter if the dude refuses to go to the ground with you.

There's also the issue of mount, knee on belly, etc. only being effective in a 1 v 1 scenario. Staying on your feet allows you to selectively employ strikes or TDs while keeping it standing so you can GTFO via running.

 

[RemyR]

As someone who's done BJJ for 10 years and wrestled for 10 years before that I have such mixed feelings and frustrations around this.

I for the life of me can't fathom why the BJJ community fears incentivizing the takedown. Fucking drives me wild. It's like I can't really defend the criticisms of our martial art when when its flaws are directly pointed out and people just shrug and say "oh well I don't want to to learn new things".

2 points for a takedown (including guard pull) and 1 point for a return to standing from the bottom, wrestling style. Make a sweep 3 points if you want. That'll still give strong guard players a slight advantage. And if people aren't engaging standing or on top, start dishing out warnings and penalty points wrestling/judo style.

/end rant

 

[Quebec Nick]

As someone who's done BJJ for 10 years and wrestled for 10 years before that I have such mixed feelings and frustrations around this.

I for the life of me can't fathom why the BJJ community fears incentivizing the takedown. Fucking drives me wild. It's like I can't really defend the criticisms of our martial art when when its flaws are directly pointed out and people just shrug and say "oh well I don't want to to learn new things".

2 points for a takedown (including guard pull) and 1 point for a return to standing from the bottom, wrestling style. Make a sweep 3 points if you want. That'll still give strong guard players a slight advantage. And if people aren't engaging standing or on top, starting dishing out warnings and penalty points wrestling/judo style.

/end rant

You're right, it's a flaw, I have this flaw and I don't really have the tools to get rid of it. Wrestling at my gym means landing bodies on other bodies that are also wrestling around.

It's one of the main issues, mat space, even more for the crowded regular classes. But a good competition class should drill takedowns for sure.

The movement we see right now in elite nogi grappling is people wrestling up, and less guard pulling. The ADCC format and sub only format make people less eager to pull guard to get the first 3 points or to lose 2 points by a takedown. Wrestling is more used to get to a dominant position not just to get 2 points to end up into a guard

 

[Chandler sama]

I agree that the lack of takedown skills are a problem. People know they are a problem, but then handwave them away by saying BJJ practitioners can takedown untrained people. Most of the people in a BJJ gym are untrained(in stand up) , so if you can't take them down why would you think you could do it to someone on the street?

I realize many gyms have a hard time teaching standup for various reasons, but I think as a community we should do more and try to improve where we can instead of just saying it isn't important and throwing our hands up.

 

[ChickenBrother]

As someone who's done BJJ for 10 years and wrestled for 10 years before that I have such mixed feelings and frustrations around this.

I for the life of me can't fathom why the BJJ community fears incentivizing the takedown. Fucking drives me wild. It's like I can't really defend the criticisms of our martial art when when its flaws are directly pointed out and people just shrug and say "oh well I don't want to to learn new things".

2 points for a takedown (including guard pull) and 1 point for a return to standing from the bottom, wrestling style. Make a sweep 3 points if you want. That'll still give strong guard players a slight advantage. And if people aren't engaging standing or on top, start dishing out warnings and penalty points wrestling/judo style.

/end rant

Pulling guard is too deeply rooted now and isn't going away overnight. But it wasn't always that way. Royce, Rickson, et al rarely if ever pulled guard in their fights - they attempted TDs and only played guard if they couldn't achieve top position from standing. I think it might be sellable if they did 2 points TD, lose 1 point if you pull guard like ADCC.

But the best solution might be riding clock like in collegiate wrestling. Riding time starts as soon as someone achieves top position, whether from TD or guard pull. And clock starts counting backward if other guy sweeps, but top man is accumulating riding time. That way there's an incentive to stand up if you can (to stop the riding clock) and a disincentive to pull guard if you can't sweep immediately. 1 min or more riding time during the match = 1 point, >2 min = 2 points same as TD.

You're right, it's a flaw, I have this flaw and I don't really have the tools to get rid of it. Wrestling at my gym means landing bodies on other bodies that are also wrestling around.

It's one of the main issues, mat space, even more for the crowded regular classes. But a good competition class should drill takedowns for sure.

The movement we see right now in elite nogi grappling is people wrestling up, and less guard pulling. The ADCC format and sub only format make people less eager to pull guard to get the first 3 points or to lose 2 points by a takedown. Wrestling is more used to get to a dominant position not just to get 2 points to end up into a guard

If you're constrained by mat space, I'd suggest starting standing and agree to have one guy let other guy take him down with limited resistance to start the roll. Then other guy gets to do the TD next time there's a reset. That's what I try to do at my gym so everyone at least gets to drill TDs. I'd also start with tomoe nage, sumi gaeshi and other sacrifice throws from Judo. Those are literally guard pulls + sweep in one move.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

BJJ is simply a method that gives the weaker person a chance to defend themselves.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

As someone who's done BJJ for 10 years and wrestled for 10 years before that I have such mixed feelings and frustrations around this.

I for the life of me can't fathom why the BJJ community fears incentivizing the takedown. Fucking drives me wild. It's like I can't really defend the criticisms of our martial art when when its flaws are directly pointed out and people just shrug and say "oh well I don't want to to learn new things".

2 points for a takedown (including guard pull) and 1 point for a return to standing from the bottom, wrestling style. Make a sweep 3 points if you want. That'll still give strong guard players a slight advantage. And if people aren't engaging standing or on top, start dishing out warnings and penalty points wrestling/judo style.

/end rant

One aspect which I believe is often overlooked is pinning and that is one reason why I personally prefer the judo newaza approach, even if obviously the BJJ system is much more elaborate.

Being on the ground with a good pinning artist will keep you pretty fucking honest because one mistake and you are paralysed the next two seconds. So yeah I really like pinning because it's a reminder of position hierarchy.

Also, controversial opinion here but a good kesa gatame IS a submission.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Pulling guard is too deeply rooted now and isn't going away overnight. But it wasn't always that way. Royce, Rickson, et al rarely if ever pulled guard in their fights - they attempted TDs and only played guard if they couldn't achieve top position from standing. I think it might be sellable if they did 2 points TD, lose 1 point if you pull guard like ADCC.

But the best solution might be riding clock like in collegiate wrestling. Riding time starts as soon as someone achieves top position, whether from TD or guard pull. And clock starts counting backward if other guy sweeps, but top man is accumulating riding time. That way there's an incentive to stand up if you can (to stop the riding clock) and a disincentive to pull guard if you can't sweep immediately. 1 min or more riding time during the match = 1 point, >2 min = 2 points same as TD.



If you're constrained by mat space, I'd suggest starting standing and agree to have one guy let other guy take him down with limited resistance to start the roll. Then other guy gets to do the TD next time there's a reset. That's what I try to do at my gym so everyone at least gets to drill TDs. I'd also start with tomoe nage, sumi gaeshi and other sacrifice throws from Judo. Those are literally guard pulls + sweep in one move.

Excellent point and I also made that observation to myself: the guy who made BJJ known to the world hardly ever pulled guard. Royce pretty much always initiated with a double leg if I am not mistaken.

The lack of TD focus in BJJ likely emerged much later as BJJ morphed into a sport and became commercially focused. As the whole business model became geared towards signing up college students and young professionals and have the most ambitious ones compete, any time spent on wrestling TDs and judo throws would have not been a great focus.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Pulling guard is too deeply rooted now and isn't going away overnight. But it wasn't always that way. Royce, Rickson, et al rarely if ever pulled guard in their fights - they attempted TDs and only played guard if they couldn't achieve top position from standing. I think it might be sellable if they did 2 points TD, lose 1 point if you pull guard like ADCC.

But the best solution might be riding clock like in collegiate wrestling. Riding time starts as soon as someone achieves top position, whether from TD or guard pull. And clock starts counting backward if other guy sweeps, but top man is accumulating riding time. That way there's an incentive to stand up if you can (to stop the riding clock) and a disincentive to pull guard if you can't sweep immediately. 1 min or more riding time during the match = 1 point, >2 min = 2 points same as TD.



If you're constrained by mat space, I'd suggest starting standing and agree to have one guy let other guy take him down with limited resistance to start the roll. Then other guy gets to do the TD next time there's a reset. That's what I try to do at my gym so everyone at least gets to drill TDs. I'd also start with tomoe nage, sumi gaeshi and other sacrifice throws from Judo. Those are literally guard pulls + sweep in one move.

Riding clock is the worse for the goal of BJJ, the main goal is to get into dominant positions, so you need to pass the freaking guard and it's an art of it's own

That's the part I don't understand about bashing guard pullers, just pass the freaking guard, a shit load of takedowns you end up in a guard, you will need to do it at some point if you want to actually finish someone

If I get guard pulled I'm straight into guard passing time, I don't care about riding someone's half guard for a minute, I can't do nothing form there so why bother

Right now if you look at the very top of the gi and nogi competitors, the AoJ guys in the gi, the B team and New Wave guys, I think that they are doing it right in the competition format they are in. They guard pull when they can get an avantageous position from it (single leg X, closed guard with good grips) but most of the time they wrestle to a scramble.

But there's always action, nobody of those guys settles for a point victory. That's the main issue, guy's that will pull guard to get the first attempt at sweeping and getting advantages. You don't pull guard to win on Tainan Dalpra or Cole Abate, they will pass your guard at some point


People that follow the sports see that, they see who wins, who gets popular and who gets the money, the sports is going in the right direction

It's not about if the guard puller is a bad person, it's about provoking action to get to your subs

If the guy on top is stalling after getting is 2 sweeping points, he's the problem, if the guy on the bottom never tries a sweep, a back take or a sub, he's the problem

 

[ChickenBrother]

Riding clock is the worse for the goal of BJJ, the main goal is to get into dominant positions, so you need to pass the freaking guard and it's an art of it's own

That's the part I don't understand about bashing guard pullers, just pass the freaking guard, a shit load of takedowns you end up in a guard, you will need to do it at some point if you want to actually finish someone

If I get guard pulled I'm straight into guard passing time, I don't care about riding someone's half guard for a minute, I can't do nothing form there so why bother

Right now if you look at the very top of the gi and nogi competitors, the AoJ guys in the gi, the B team and New Wave guys, I think that they are doing it right in the competition format they are in. They guard pull when they can get an avantageous position from it (single leg X, closed guard with good grips) but most of the time they wrestle to a scramble.

But there's always action, nobody of those guys settles for a point victory. That's the main issue, guy's that will pull guard to get the first attempt at sweeping and getting advantages. You don't pull guard to win on Tainan Dalpra or Cole Abate, they will pass your guard at some point


People that follow the sports see that, they see who wins, who gets popular and who gets the money, the sports is going in the right direction

It's not about if the guard puller is a bad person, it's about provoking action to get to your subs

If the guy on top is stalling after getting is 2 sweeping points, he's the problem, if the guy on the bottom never tries a sweep, a back take or a sub, he's the problem

You acknowledged it's a flaw and that you have this flaw, but now you're getting defensive about people "bashing guard pullers?" "Just pass the freaking guard" lol. Why don't guard pullers "just freaking take the other guy down and pass HIS guard?" Of course both guys should be working to improve their positions, but that applies both standing and on the ground. Pulling guard without being able to sub or sweep immediately isn't doing that and should be scored accordingly.

As a former wrestler and Judoka, I was all about TDs and top game, even after I started cross-training BJJ. 7 years ago my guard game literally sucked but I started focusing on BJJ to become more well rounded. Now I have a decent guard game but my passing game is still much better because I'm always having to work it against these BJJ clowns who only know how to pull guard. So I had the humility to focus on an aspect I was terrible at and you see quite a few wrestlers and Judoka doing this now. But what you rarely see is BJJ guys doing the reverse. It's always, "nah, TDs are too hard. They're dangerous. We don't have enough mat space. My guard is the bomb diggity and it's too dangerous for da' streetz." THAT'S the problem.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Excellent point and I also made that observation to myself: the guy who made BJJ known to the world hardly ever pulled guard. Royce pretty much always initiated with a double leg if I am not mistaken.

The lack of TD focus in BJJ likely emerged much later as BJJ morphed into a sport and became commercially focused. As the whole business model became geared towards signing up college students and young professionals and have the most ambitious ones compete, any time spent on wrestling TDs and judo throws would have not been a great focus.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the thuggery and bullshido, but the old school gracie jiujitsu guys were game everywhere and Royce was a sexual tyrannosaurus of a mixed martial artist. He shot in on f'ing Dan Severn, a world class wrestler and cross-trained sambist who outweighed him by 80 lbs. And Helio was a Kodokan Judo sandan and in the clips we've seen of his match with Kimura, he never pulls guard. From standing, he's still going for it.

 

[fishNjits]

That was 8 minutes of my life wasted...

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yeah I'm not a fan of the thuggery and bullshido, but the old school gracie jiujitsu guys were game everywhere and Royce was a sexual tyrannosaurus of a mixed martial artist. He shot in on f'ing Dan Severn, a world class wrestler and cross-trained sambist who outweighed him by 80 lbs. And Helio was a Kodokan Judo sandan and in the clips we've seen of his match with Kimura, he never pulls guard. From standing, he's still going for it.

Please forgive the nitpicking but I believe that Severn was never a sambo guy, as is obvious by he utter cluelessness when it came to subs and subs defense. I think that this misconception was created by UFC 2's gettho ass, pixelated caption which coined him as a sambo guy indeed but I think this was a mistake. One could write a book on the hillarious shit written in the early UFC captions.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Please forgive the nitpicking but I believe that Severn was never a sambo guy, as is obvious by he utter cluelessness when it came to subs and subs defense. I think that this misconception was created by UFC 2's gettho ass, pixelated caption which coined him as a sambo guy indeed but I think this was a mistake. One could write a book on the hillarious shit written in the early UFC captions.

My dude, I'm no Gracie nuthugger and it's common knowledge the early UFCs were infomercials for BJJ with bullshido all around. But I said Severn was a "cross-trained sambist," which is accurate according to his wiki. It says he "cross-trained Judo and competed in Sambo, becoming AAU Sambo Champion while in college." I note that sport sambo doesn't allow chokes of any kind but does allow leg and arm lock subs. So to me Severn's performance vs. Royce makes sense as it's apparent he was unaccustomed to a prolonged full guard situation and a potential triangle choke from the same. I also note I started training Judo a year and a half prior to UFC 1 (and had already been introduced to BJJ) and while there were some Judo newaza specialists out there, the typical Judoka's guard game at the time (if they weren't turtling out of throws or guard passes) consisted of closed guard or lockdown half guard as a means to deny osaekomi while waiting for the standup, MAYBE throwing up a hail mary sub attempt. So if he had cross-trained with those kind of guys, Severn's cluelessness re. passing and active subs from guard makes sense.

 

[Rod1]

Also, controversial opinion here but a good kesa gatame IS a submission.

Not controversial.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

I train mostly judo but I sometimes do open matt in a local bjj gym, also an odd nogi class and the majority pull guard if standing, which is rare, as must start from the ground

Couple of former mma fighters and judokas that are more than happy to Start standing and go for takedowns. Too many just brush off going for takedowns, as they think they already know how to do it in the street and why get injured during training is their reasoning

Good luck trying to takedown a rugby player or some animal that is twice your size and you rarely practice

Pulling guard on concrete might not be ideal lol

 

[Esile]

Yeah I'm not a fan of the thuggery and bullshido, but the old school gracie jiujitsu guys were game everywhere and Royce was a sexual tyrannosaurus of a mixed martial artist. He shot in on f'ing Dan Severn, a world class wrestler and cross-trained sambist who outweighed him by 80 lbs. And Helio was a Kodokan Judo sandan and in the clips we've seen of his match with Kimura, he never pulls guard. From standing, he's still going for it.

Actually Royce didn't shoot on Severn, he never even got a chance to attempt a takedown since Severn took him down immediately.
He shoot on Shamrock which was also a much bigger opponent with wrestling experience tough, altough Ken sprawled and therefore Royce had to resort to pulling guard.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Actually Royce didn't shoot on Severn, he never even got a chance to attempt a takedown since Severn took him down immediately.
He shoot on Shamrock which was also a much bigger opponent with wrestling experience tough, altough Ken sprawled and therefore Royce had to resort to pulling guard.

You are correct sir. I got it mixed up with the Shamrock fight. But Royce does spend almost a minute mean mugging Severn while threatening hilariously ineffective front kicks before getting taken down. Dude still had brass balls in my book and didn't pull guard unless there was no other option.