Angry with Sakuraba possibly for money PRIDE gives him tough fight and asks Wanderlei to "kill" him

[Salves sod Iqueac]

You see that from promoters all the time; whether they say you're a good guy one day, or a bad guy another day, depends entirely on whether you're going along with their ideas or not that day. Dana does it, the yaks who ran pride did it, is normal.

This reply. The whole thing is about cheating in Pride, and Mezger being f*cked up by the promotion to Saku win.

Didnt understand by how it was forumulated.
I dont have much to say about the "shady" aspect of the story as i dont really know the private interests and intrincancies.


My take on the fight is that its pretty much a great "sprawl & brawl" display by Mezger, particularly excellent single leg work by both.

Guy was more tight with his striking, making Saku pay for his habit of lean back with his chin up in the form of clean straight rights that were the best shots of the fight. Mezger always showed to be in control the few times Saku got any deep in a single leg or even took his back. Very mpressive by Mezger

Aside from a good kick in the face, which connected with the feet rather than the shin and didnt stagger Mezger, Saku threw like one single punch to the head, most of his good kicks were partially blocked and none of them landed in a weak point judging by Mezger's reaction, which is the only way a kick to the body can be considered a better shot than a clean right punch to the face.





I quote the most clueless, or biased, parts in ur OP. I alread told u that smells like ur understanding of standup fighting is mediocre to say the best - u know, the reach talk...- and here, you are way off in the statements you make imo

>You assume the false premise that striking was even in that fight, and that even damage was in favour of Saku !¡

> Guy Mezger gets the edge in striking in the standing fight even if it's rather close, let alone adding the strikes landed in the ground. Period.

> The only way that fight could be considered a draw is by whatever rewards for weight disparity there were

For the rest, I see Ken losing his temper but I dont have much further to tell. Whatever Mezger says about the matter I guess. He won that round.

This. And not only this.

Mezger: "That's what they said. That's how they justified it. The problem is, there wasn't a 10 kilo weight difference.
I was 199 pounds. I got the flu from Ken's kids in training. I took four bags of fluids with me because I was so sick and dehydrated."

The fight b4, vs Shoji, Guy came in @ 200 lbs [no flu, no short notice, no 'official' injury, even though he
seemed to have a problem since he didnt use his right kick...]

He then fought 1 month later against Brad Jones, @ Pure Action 2 [USA]. > I have no info on his weight.
[Note: this fight seems to dismiss the possibility of a foot injury in the SAKU fight...]

The next fight was against Masaaki Satake, 2 months later > Normal preparation, Weight = 203 lbs.

Now, the infamous 10 Kg criteria = 22 lbs.
The difference between Guy´s claim and SAKU´s weight = 16 lbs.

I´ve always considered Mezger a no-nonsense fighter, pretty reliable.
I see no reason to doubt him, but it´s indeed hard to believe that he came in @ his usual 200 lbs weight,
with such a chaotic preparation and on short notice.

And the whole controversy is pretty much about those 6 lbs...

View attachment 510301

As Quadros said:
"They still had that 10kg handicapping [mentality].
Let's say a fighter was 10 kilos or more lighter than another fighter.
He already had a point in the round, so you basically had to beat him more than someone your own size."

7/ Negative Points – Yellow Cards:

> NONE here.

II- Aftermath:

Note: Matt Hume was one of the Judges (he knew the Lion´s Den crew since the Pancrase days...).
He claimed that "We knew nothing about that. I don't doubt Ken had an agreement with them. What he claimed he was told was that it would be one round"

This is what Guy said after the fight:[21 July 2001]

Reporter : Has Pride ever approached you about doing a work?
Guy Mezger : "No, pride had never asked me to work a match."

Reporter : You fought Sakuraba in the Pride Grand Prix, opening round. The fight was only scheduled to be
1, 15 minute round. Yet at the end of the first round Pride attempted to add another round, do you believe
they tried to rob you?
Guy Mezger : "Rob me, no."

To prove that Im keepin´ it real, gonna add the rest of the interview:

"Shitting themselves because they were expecting me to lose and when I did not, it was going to screw up
the Hoyce/Sak match, which is a bigger sell in Japan. I think the match maker and high ups were not on the
same page."

> He naturally defended his win, but confirmed that he felt there was no hobbery.

Later, he added:

Mezger: "Mainly, I felt like they were just disorganized.
I didn't know I was going to fight Masaaki Satake until 18 days before the fight. Their take was, "If you're a real warrior, you'll do it." I go, "Really? OK. All right." "


CONCLUSION: Consequently, what happened?

Mismanagement:

> Pride was still a rookie Org., this [OW] GP was their 1st, and they had to deal with several agendas
[see the SAKU vs Hoyce fight configuration later, with no time limit...during a one night tournament (!?) ]...

> Mezger took this fight on short notice, while he was sick [flu], and had [maybe] an injured foot (Mezger
confirmed the flu [got it from Ken´s kids], and that he was recovering from a kidney problem but not the injury, in his post-fight interviews).
He realistically shouldnt have taken it (was offered 6 figures though..).
Even SAKU wasnt interested in this fight, claimin´that Mezger´s style was "boring"...

Spoiler: 'Decons' Threads

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/#post-151708171

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/6/11/550357/guy-mezger-on-pride-and-wo

"You know, I’ll tell you truthfully man, I wouldn’t play ball with them on certain things. They wanted me to do certain things that’s just not something that I’m gonna do. It’s against my, kind of my moral code and I think it pissed them off because I’m not gonna do some of the stuff that they wanted me to do. And I knew the moment that I disagreed, that I wasn’t gonna play the game with them on that that things were gonna go south for me there."

"Dealing with the Japanese too you know in dealing with that stuff. They have no real sanctioning body. There’s no athletic board overseeing them or signing judges or any of that kind of stuff. You know they can do whatever they want over there and they often do."


https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/6/13/551413/more-guy-mezger-on-fixed-f

"I am not claiming that any of MY fights were fixed or “worked”. I fought many hard matches in Pride with full intention of winning. I was stopped twice and the rest were split decisions against me in my losses in Pride (and, of course I disagree with the decisions, but I knew that I should have KOed them anyway). I am stating that I was approached once and only one time about my match with Satake."

"I was approached by 2 Japanese guys who were always at the Pride events and were accompanying various Japanese fighters. They wanted to discuss my upcoming bout with Satake. They insisted that I keep it a stand up fight to be a more exciting match for the fans (or maybe because he has no ground game at all.) I told them that I was going to fight like I always do and I do my best to make it as exciting as possible, but I was not going to promise them anything. They came back to me that they were willing to compensate me (that is Japanese term for money) to keep it on the feet. I said no. They then changed the subject and said that they could get me hooked up in Japanese Pro-Wrestling and make more money. I felt this was another attempt to get me to make it a kickboxing match, but then they were discussing the outcome of the match and how it was important for Satake to win because he lost his last match. I stopped them there and told them I knew what was going to be said next and I was not going to do it. (If he had to win then that meant that I had to lose) End of Conversation."

Everyone knows that fixed fights were a reality, Takada vs. Coleman is one of the most famous.

Bas Rutten on JRE: "Takada vs Coleman was fixed"

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/bas-rutten-on-jre-takada-vs-coleman-was-fixed.3448415/

"It was what it was. I needed to support my family. They guaranteed me another fight after that and I needed that security. It was what it was. I'm going to leave it at that." - Coleman himself.

You are fighting a losing battle Gono.

 

[gono btw]

See your first mistake was trying to educate the forum retard.

Literally every thread he has made is full of this kindof ass backwards logic. There is a pattern in all of his threads. You just wasted a chunk of you life on that response.

Gono likes suicidal [but courageous] noobz, tho...

You're a clown.



This. And not only this.



https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/6/11/550357/guy-mezger-on-pride-and-wo

"You know, I’ll tell you truthfully man, I wouldn’t play ball with them on certain things. They wanted me to do certain things that’s just not something that I’m gonna do. It’s against my, kind of my moral code and I think it pissed them off because I’m not gonna do some of the stuff that they wanted me to do. And I knew the moment that I disagreed, that I wasn’t gonna play the game with them on that that things were gonna go south for me there."

"Dealing with the Japanese too you know in dealing with that stuff. They have no real sanctioning body. There’s no athletic board overseeing them or signing judges or any of that kind of stuff. You know they can do whatever they want over there and they often do."


https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/6/13/551413/more-guy-mezger-on-fixed-f

"I am not claiming that any of MY fights were fixed or “worked”. I fought many hard matches in Pride with full intention of winning. I was stopped twice and the rest were split decisions against me in my losses in Pride (and, of course I disagree with the decisions, but I knew that I should have KOed them anyway). I am stating that I was approached once and only one time about my match with Satake."

"I was approached by 2 Japanese guys who were always at the Pride events and were accompanying various Japanese fighters. They wanted to discuss my upcoming bout with Satake. They insisted that I keep it a stand up fight to be a more exciting match for the fans (or maybe because he has no ground game at all.) I told them that I was going to fight like I always do and I do my best to make it as exciting as possible, but I was not going to promise them anything. They came back to me that they were willing to compensate me (that is Japanese term for money) to keep it on the feet. I said no. They then changed the subject and said that they could get me hooked up in Japanese Pro-Wrestling and make more money. I felt this was another attempt to get me to make it a kickboxing match, but then they were discussing the outcome of the match and how it was important for Satake to win because he lost his last match. I stopped them there and told them I knew what was going to be said next and I was not going to do it. (If he had to win then that meant that I had to lose) End of Conversation."

Everyone knows that fixed fights were a reality, Takada vs. Coleman is one of the most famous.

Bas Rutten on JRE: "Takada vs Coleman was fixed"

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/bas-rutten-on-jre-takada-vs-coleman-was-fixed.3448415/

"It was what it was. I needed to support my family. They guaranteed me another fight after that and I needed that security. It was what it was. I'm going to leave it at that." - Coleman himself.

You are fighting a losing battle Gono.

hmmm...ok, lil Wa-Caique...since you´ve expanded the brutality of dat good ol´school Gono ass-whoopin´, b4 assessin´ your "technical" rebuttal about the 6 previous Questions I dropped, here´s a 7th one about that complex topic: potential fixed fights in Pride.

Accordin´to Big Daddy:

Pride 1 : 75% = fixed.

Pride 2 : 50% = fixed.

Pride 3 : 25% = fixed.

Pride 4 : 10% = fixed.

etc...

Spoiler: Big Daddy´s narrative

This is Pride 1:

Brazil Hickson Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Submission (armbar) 1 04:47
USA/Ger Kimo Leopoldo vs. USA Dan Severn Draw (time expired) 1 30:00:00
Japan Koji Kitao def. Australia Nathan Jones Submission (keylock) 1 02:14
Brazil Henzo Gracie vs. Japan Akira Shoji Draw (time expired) 3 10:00
Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge def. Russia Oleg Taktarov KO (punch) 1 04:57
Japan Kazunari Murakami def. USA John Dixson Submission (armbar) 1 01:34

75 % = 4-5 fights

QUESTION 7: Show us, lil WaCaique...

Spoiler: Waitin´...

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Gono likes suicidal [but courageous] noobz, tho...

View attachment 806802



hmmm...ok, lil Wa-Caique...since you´ve expanded the brutality of dat good ol´school Gono ass-whoopin´, b4 assessin´ your "technical" rebuttal about the 6 previous Questions I dropped, here´s a 7th one about that complex topic: potential fixed fights in Pride.

Accordin´to Big Daddy:

Pride 1 : 75% = fixed.

Pride 2 : 50% = fixed.

Pride 3 : 25% = fixed.

Pride 4 : 10% = fixed.

etc...

Spoiler: Big Daddy´s narrative

This is Pride 1:

Brazil Hickson Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Submission (armbar) 1 04:47
USA/Ger Kimo Leopoldo vs. USA Dan Severn Draw (time expired) 1 30:00:00
Japan Koji Kitao def. Australia Nathan Jones Submission (keylock) 1 02:14
Brazil Henzo Gracie vs. Japan Akira Shoji Draw (time expired) 3 10:00
Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge def. Russia Oleg Taktarov KO (punch) 1 04:57
Japan Kazunari Murakami def. USA John Dixson Submission (armbar) 1 01:34

75 % = 4-5 fights

QUESTION 7: Show us, lil WaCaique...

Spoiler: Waitin´...

View attachment 806804

I don't know if it's because English is not my first language, or because of you, but I didn't understand much of your reply.

Anyway, the thread is originally about the video where it is said that just because they were angry with Saku, possibly for money, they gave him an extremely difficult fight in Wand. Then we talked about the fight between Saku and Mezger, and the cheating cases at Pride, Coleman vs. Takada, the offer made to Mezger that got him screwed up by the promotion, the illegal referee stoppage (more than one case) etc.

Are you denying the cases of cheating? Because what happened is something well known, especially the Coleman vs. Takada case.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Gono likes suicidal [but courageous] noobz, tho...

View attachment 806802



hmmm...ok, lil Wa-Caique...since you´ve expanded the brutality of dat good ol´school Gono ass-whoopin´, b4 assessin´ your "technical" rebuttal about the 6 previous Questions I dropped, here´s a 7th one about that complex topic: potential fixed fights in Pride.

Accordin´to Big Daddy:

Pride 1 : 75% = fixed.

Pride 2 : 50% = fixed.

Pride 3 : 25% = fixed.

Pride 4 : 10% = fixed.

etc...

Spoiler: Big Daddy´s narrative

This is Pride 1:

Brazil Hickson Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Submission (armbar) 1 04:47
USA/Ger Kimo Leopoldo vs. USA Dan Severn Draw (time expired) 1 30:00:00
Japan Koji Kitao def. Australia Nathan Jones Submission (keylock) 1 02:14
Brazil Henzo Gracie vs. Japan Akira Shoji Draw (time expired) 3 10:00
Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge def. Russia Oleg Taktarov KO (punch) 1 04:57
Japan Kazunari Murakami def. USA John Dixson Submission (armbar) 1 01:34

75 % = 4-5 fights

QUESTION 7: Show us, lil WaCaique...

Spoiler: Waitin´...

View attachment 806804

I think I finally understood the shit you wrote. You're basically asking me to talk about the cheating cases at Pride using the accusations of "Big Daddy".

In other words, you want to change the discussion so far instead of recognizing that you were refuted or refute my refutation.

Right?

Well, f*ck you.

The subject is the fight between Guy Mezger and Saku having been cheated and the fight against Wand being given just to keep Saku behaved. Both things that confirm that Saku was protected by the promotion.

Now bring on or shut up and getfo.

 

[gono btw]

Your whole point around Guy Mezger vs. Saku seems to be around the score, am I right? If yes that's where you make a mistake. The cheating is that it was agreed that there would be no extra round. And then they asked an extra round from Guy. This cheat is common knowledge already, Pride even confessed, blaming the translators of course.

So? Was this supposed to be an argument?



Of the demands made the one that matters is that the referee could not stop the fight.



First. Was this supposed to be an argument? Second. Go see the UFC 1 rules. Third. So we are assuming that, as long as it wasn’t in the “VT Traditions”, which I’ve never heard of, then PRIDE could cheat for Saku and I and no one should talk about it?



I already covered that by talking about how the Wand vs. Saku fight happened because Pride was angry with Saku. If a promotion that has nationalist and ethnic / racial motives for wanting the fighter to be sucessful, and has a history of cheating for him, and others like Guy has already revealed, cannot be accused of protecting, then what is necessary?



Vitor Gracie?



Fedor?

Here we go, lil WaCaique...

hmmm... let´s what we´ve got here... How did lil Wacaique deal with those 6 Questions...

QUESTION 1: What is the genesis of that criterion? How has it evolved since the 1990s?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

Since you [wisely] ducked & didnt even try to consider this topic, my understandin´is that you´re not qualified to assess it, & for good reasons: be it in Pride or Rings, this is an awfully complex 'criterion' to assess.

I honestly dont believe you have enough legit knowledge to fully understand such an ambitious topic, consequently I´m gonna tell you to sit down & wait for the release of the 2nd part of that 39th Decons about Fedor vs Arona, where that essential 'criterion' & its genesis will be deconstructed:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-39-1-chasin´the-wolf-´round-the-ring-fedor-vs-arona.4126283/

QUESTION 2: Can you tell us about the original demands made by Hoyler regardin´the Fight Configuration for that fight?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Of the demands made the one that matters is that the referee could not stop the fight."

Key word in Gono´s question : "original"

Your answer only focusses on the final agreement.

Here´s what happened: when them Gracies started the negociations, Hoyler [much hespekt to him, tho, since he was an OG OW warrior] dropped this unprecedented request:
- in case of no finish at the end of the regular time, the undersized fighter [himself] would be declared the... winner! (?)
Moreover, the agreement between the 2 clans did include the possibility of the Ref. stoppin´the fight in case of a deep cut, for instance.

QUESTION 3: Were those demands in the true tradition of the Vale Tudo Era? In particular, what´s the qualitative difference between those demands & the ones made by Carlson when he faced Ivan Gomes or Euclides Pereira?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "as long as it wasn’t in the “VT Traditions”, which I’ve never heard of,"

At least you admit that you´re completely clueless, right, mate? Good.

Now, as cocky as you are, nobody really expected you to know about the Vale Tudo traditions.
But at no point did any VT fighter ask for such a specific Fight Config. since 1934.
Geo Omori, George, Waldemar, Ivan, Euclides, Rei Zulu etc... Nobody.

Even Carlson, when he went straight to Salvador & challenged Euclides, only tried to ask for No Judges, to no avail.

Even Carlson, when he challenged Ivan Gomes, did get that No Judges fight config., but that´s it. And bear in mind that the size difference between those 2 was even more significant:

Spoiler: SAKU G. vs Hoyler

Carlson = 167 lbs (supposedly, probably a lil bit more) / Ivan = 216 lbs

What happened in that fight? Between those throws out of the ring by Ivan, Carlson butt-scooted durin´the whole fight till he got the draw. Wise & realistic approach, you might say... but there´s a difference between claimin´a draw & stealin´a win, for the undersized fighter.

All those things Im droppin´here, is all about educatin´ya, since you keep tryin´to show off in the Grapplin´Forum about the Brazilian scene, but the reality is ya dont know shit. Stop pretendin´.


QUESTION 4: What rule change happened @ Pride 13 that is historically, arguably considered an anti-SAKU [by extension, anti Submission Grappler like Catch Wrasslers] rule?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

Check: at Pride 13, literally out of nowhere, Pride decided to drop a new rule : the four-point rule was removed.
This clearly favoured wrestlers like Coleman, and non-wrestlers were slowly adjusting to it...
Even Hendo acknowledged it in his interview:

Spoiler: Hendo - Interview

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

QUESTION 5: What happened in the SAKU G. vs Vitor Gracie fight that disqualify any narrative about Pride Refs. protectin´ SAKU G. ?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Vitor Gracie?"

Damn, m´f´kah... you´re really clueless af....



Educate yourself:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

Yuji Shimada literally protected Vitor Gracie in that fight & kept him alive [see: multiple stand-ups while SAKU G. was punishin´Vitor with them kicks in the butt scoot position]

Spoiler: About Vitor... Gracie...

Ask Helson... fool.

QUESTION 6: Pride gave him 2 options, can you tell the name of that other fighter? Bearin´in mind that Pride perfectly knew about SAKU´s [sado-maso] mind & how he would answer.

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Fedor?"

Damn, mate... at this point Im really wonderin´ if you´re a genius troll or somethin´..
Obviously not Fedor, the choice was between LHW Lil Nog & Mexican pro-wrassler El Solar.
Pride obviously knew that SAKU G. would never choose the easy option

Spoiler: SAKU G. - Interview

“Rogério was the only choice. If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents, people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that. We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too? I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”

Now, ya lil, irrelevant, clueless bum.... All these 6 questions showed all the homework you have to do b4 badmouthin´ a legit OG like SAKU.

Show...

Spoiler: Some...

Hes-Pekt, m´f´kah!

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Here we go, lil WaCaique...

hmmm... let´s what we´ve got here... How did lil Wacaique deal with those 6 Questions...

QUESTION 1: What is the genesis of that criterion? How has it evolved since the 1990s?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

View attachment 806806

Since you [wisely] ducked & didnt even try to consider this topic, my understandin´is that you´re not qualified to assess it, & for good reasons: be it in Pride or Rings, this is an awfully complex 'criterion' to assess.

I honestly dont believe you have enough legit knowledge to fully understand such an ambitious topic, consequently I´m gonna tell you to sit down & wait for the release of the 2nd part of that 39th Decons about Fedor vs Arona, where that essential 'criterion' & its genesis will be deconstructed.


QUESTION 2: Can you tell us about the original demands made by Hoyler regardin´the Fight Configuration for that fight?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Of the demands made the one that matters is that the referee could not stop the fight."

Key word in Gono´s question : "original"

Your answer only focusses on the final agreement.

Here´s what happened: when them Gracies started the negociations, Hoyler [much hespekt to him, tho, since he was an OG OW warrior] dropped this unprecedented request:
- in case of no finish at the end of the regular time, the undersized fighter [himself] would be declared the... winner! (?)

QUESTION 3: Were those demands in the true tradition of the Vale Tudo Era? In particular, what´s the qualitative difference between those demands & the ones made by Carlson when he faced Ivan Gomes or Euclides Pereira?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "as long as it wasn’t in the “VT Traditions”, which I’ve never heard of,"

At least you admit that you´re completely clueless, right, mate? Good.

Now, as cocky as you are, nobody really expected you to know about the Vale Tudo traditions.
But at no point did any VT fighter ask for such a specific Fight Config. since 1934.
Geo Omori, George, Waldemar, Ivan, Euclides, Rei Zulu etc... Nobody.

Even Carlson, when he went straight to Salvador & challenged Euclides, only tried to ask for No Judges, to no avail.

Even Carlson, when he challenged Ivan Gomes, did get that No Judges fight config., but that´s it. And bear in mind that the size difference between 2 was even more significant:

Spoiler: SAKU G. vs Hoyler

View attachment 806818

Carlson = 167 lbs (supposedly, probably a lil bit more) / Ivan = 216 lbs

What happened in that fight? Between those throws out of the ring by Ivan, Carlson butt-scooted durin´the whole fight till he got the draw. Wise & realistic approach, you might say... but there´s a difference between claimin´a draw & stealin´a win, for the undersized fighter.

All those things Im droppin´here, is all about educatin´ya, since you keep tryin´to show off in the Grapplin´Forum about the Brazilian scene, but the reality is ya dont know shit. Stop pretendin´.


QUESTION 4: What rule change happened @ Pride 13 that is historically, arguably considered an anti-SAKU [by extension, anti Submission Grappler like Catch Wrasslers] rule?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

View attachment 806806

Check: at Pride 13, literally out of nowhere, Pride decided to drop a new rule : the four-point rule was removed.
This clearly favoured wrestlers like Coleman, and non-wrestlers were slowly adjusting to it...
Even Hendo acknowledged it in his interview:

Spoiler: Hendo - Interview

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

QUESTION 5: What happened in the SAKU G. vs Vitor Gracie fight that disqualify any narrative about Pride Refs. protectin´ SAKU G. ?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Vitor Gracie?"

Damn, m´f´kah... you´re really clueless af....

View attachment 806825

Educate yourself:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

Yuji Shimada literally protected Vitor Gracie in that fight & kept him alive [see: multiple stand-ups while SAKU G. was punishin´Vitor with them kicks in the butt scoot position]

Spoiler: About Vitor... Gracie...

Ask Helson... fool.

View attachment 806826

QUESTION 6: Pride gave him 2 options, can you tell the name of that other fighter? Bearin´in mind that Pride perfectly knew about SAKU´s [sado-maso] mind & how he would answer.

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Fedor?"

Damn, mate... at this point Im really wonderin´ if you´re a genius troll or somethin´..
Obviously not Fedor, the choice was between LHW Lil Nog & Mexican pro-wrassler El Solar.
Pride obviously knew that SAKU G. would never choose the easy option

Spoiler: SAKU G. - Interview

“Rogério was the only choice. If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents, people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that. We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too? I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”

Now, ya lil, irrelevant, clueless bum.... All these 6 questions showed all the homework you have to do b4 badmouthin´ a legit OG like SAKU.

Show...

Spoiler: Some...

Hes-Pekt, m´f´kah!

View attachment 806828

My boy, the subject is the fight between Guy Mezger and Saku having been cheated and the fight against Wand being given just to keep Saku behaved. Both things that confirm that Saku was protected by the promotion.

Now bring on or shut up and getfo.

And you're wrong about Vale Tudo "special" rules, again look at UFC1 and the rules, but anyway, even if you were right, this has nothing to do with the thread.

Saku, Wand, and Mezger, Pride cheating, protecting the japanese fighter for nationalistic and racial reasons, etc.

Now bring on or shut up and getfo.2

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

QUESTION 4: What rule change happened @ Pride 13 that is historically, arguably considered an anti-SAKU [by extension, anti Submission Grappler like Catch Wrasslers] rule?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

Check: at Pride 13, literally out of nowhere, Pride decided to drop a new rule : the four-point rule was removed.
This clearly favoured wrestlers like Coleman, and non-wrestlers were slowly adjusting to it...
Even Hendo acknowledged it in his interview:

Spoiler: Hendo - Interview

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

This actually contributes to what I'm saying, this rule was only changed in the fight that occurred because Pride was angry with Saku, before that this rule was used to protect Saku, as you said yourself. With Pride's anger at Saku the rule was changed. Do you even listen to what you say or ...

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

QUESTION 5: What happened in the SAKU G. vs Vitor Gracie fight that disqualify any narrative about Pride Refs. protectin´ SAKU G. ?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Vitor Gracie?"

Damn, m´f´kah... you´re really clueless af....

Educate yourself:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

Yuji Shimada literally protected Vitor Gracie in that fight & kept him alive [see: multiple stand-ups while SAKU G. was punishin´Vitor with them kicks in the butt scoot position]

Again, Vitor Gracie? (His name is Vitor Belfort).

And again, nothing to do with the thread.

The subject of the thread is the fight between Guy Mezger and Saku having been cheated and the fight against Wand being given just to keep Saku behaved. Both things that confirm that Saku was protected by the promotion.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

In Portuguese.



In my opinion, these types of fights werent more commonly given to Saku, because he was protected by PRIDE, he was their biggest star for being Japanese, the public, who were also Japanese, liked it. So the promotion protected him. That's why they cheated against Guy Mezger, where Saku was declared the winner of the fight he lost, and that's why it was only when they were angry with Saku that they would give him this kind of fights.

What do you all think?

The thread.

Here we go, lil WaCaique...

hmmm... let´s what we´ve got here... How did lil Wacaique deal with those 6 Questions...

QUESTION 1: What is the genesis of that criterion? How has it evolved since the 1990s?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

View attachment 806806

Since you [wisely] ducked & didnt even try to consider this topic, my understandin´is that you´re not qualified to assess it, & for good reasons: be it in Pride or Rings, this is an awfully complex 'criterion' to assess.

I honestly dont believe you have enough legit knowledge to fully understand such an ambitious topic, consequently I´m gonna tell you to sit down & wait for the release of the 2nd part of that 39th Decons about Fedor vs Arona, where that essential 'criterion' & its genesis will be deconstructed:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-39-1-chasin´the-wolf-´round-the-ring-fedor-vs-arona.4126283/

QUESTION 2: Can you tell us about the original demands made by Hoyler regardin´the Fight Configuration for that fight?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Of the demands made the one that matters is that the referee could not stop the fight."

Key word in Gono´s question : "original"

Your answer only focusses on the final agreement.

Here´s what happened: when them Gracies started the negociations, Hoyler [much hespekt to him, tho, since he was an OG OW warrior] dropped this unprecedented request:
- in case of no finish at the end of the regular time, the undersized fighter [himself] would be declared the... winner! (?)

QUESTION 3: Were those demands in the true tradition of the Vale Tudo Era? In particular, what´s the qualitative difference between those demands & the ones made by Carlson when he faced Ivan Gomes or Euclides Pereira?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "as long as it wasn’t in the “VT Traditions”, which I’ve never heard of,"

At least you admit that you´re completely clueless, right, mate? Good.

Now, as cocky as you are, nobody really expected you to know about the Vale Tudo traditions.
But at no point did any VT fighter ask for such a specific Fight Config. since 1934.
Geo Omori, George, Waldemar, Ivan, Euclides, Rei Zulu etc... Nobody.

Even Carlson, when he went straight to Salvador & challenged Euclides, only tried to ask for No Judges, to no avail.

Even Carlson, when he challenged Ivan Gomes, did get that No Judges fight config., but that´s it. And bear in mind that the size difference between those 2 was even more significant:

Spoiler: SAKU G. vs Hoyler

View attachment 806818

Carlson = 167 lbs (supposedly, probably a lil bit more) / Ivan = 216 lbs

What happened in that fight? Between those throws out of the ring by Ivan, Carlson butt-scooted durin´the whole fight till he got the draw. Wise & realistic approach, you might say... but there´s a difference between claimin´a draw & stealin´a win, for the undersized fighter.

All those things Im droppin´here, is all about educatin´ya, since you keep tryin´to show off in the Grapplin´Forum about the Brazilian scene, but the reality is ya dont know shit. Stop pretendin´.


QUESTION 4: What rule change happened @ Pride 13 that is historically, arguably considered an anti-SAKU [by extension, anti Submission Grappler like Catch Wrasslers] rule?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

View attachment 806806

Check: at Pride 13, literally out of nowhere, Pride decided to drop a new rule : the four-point rule was removed.
This clearly favoured wrestlers like Coleman, and non-wrestlers were slowly adjusting to it...
Even Hendo acknowledged it in his interview:

Spoiler: Hendo - Interview

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

QUESTION 5: What happened in the SAKU G. vs Vitor Gracie fight that disqualify any narrative about Pride Refs. protectin´ SAKU G. ?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Vitor Gracie?"

Damn, m´f´kah... you´re really clueless af....

View attachment 806825

Educate yourself:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

Yuji Shimada literally protected Vitor Gracie in that fight & kept him alive [see: multiple stand-ups while SAKU G. was punishin´Vitor with them kicks in the butt scoot position]

Spoiler: About Vitor... Gracie...

Ask Helson... fool.

View attachment 806826

QUESTION 6: Pride gave him 2 options, can you tell the name of that other fighter? Bearin´in mind that Pride perfectly knew about SAKU´s [sado-maso] mind & how he would answer.

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Fedor?"

Damn, mate... at this point Im really wonderin´ if you´re a genius troll or somethin´..
Obviously not Fedor, the choice was between LHW Lil Nog & Mexican pro-wrassler El Solar.
Pride obviously knew that SAKU G. would never choose the easy option

Spoiler: SAKU G. - Interview

“Rogério was the only choice. If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents, people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that. We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too? I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”

Now, ya lil, irrelevant, clueless bum.... All these 6 questions showed all the homework you have to do b4 badmouthin´ a legit OG like SAKU.

Show...

Spoiler: Some...

Hes-Pekt, m´f´kah!

View attachment 806828

What you said.

You did not refute anything.

Just say gono, was or not Wand given to Saku, and with a change of rules that gave Wand an advantage, when Pride was angry with Saku? Was Saku's victory over Mezger cheating or not? Takada's victory over Coleman, was it fixed or not?

Or just shut up.

 

[gono btw]

My boy, the subject is the fight between Guy Mezger and Saku having been cheated and the fight against Wand being given just to keep Saku behaved. Both things that confirm that Saku was protected by the promotion.

Now bring on or shut up and getfo.

And you're wrong about Vale Tudo "special" rules, again look at UFC1 and the rules, but anyway, even if you were right, this has nothing to do with the thread.

Saku, Wand, and Mezger, Pride cheating, protecting the japanese fighter for nationalistic and racial reasons, etc.

Now bring on or shut up and getfo.2

I don't know if it's because English is not my first language, or because of you, but I didn't understand much of your reply.

Anyway, the thread is originally about the video where it is said that just because they were angry with Saku, possibly for money, they gave him an extremely difficult fight in Wand. Then we talked about the fight between Saku and Mezger, and the cheating cases at Pride, Coleman vs. Takada, the offer made to Mezger that got him screwed up by the promotion, the illegal referee stoppage (more than one case) etc.

Are you denying the cases of cheating? Because what happened is something well known, especially the Coleman vs. Takada case.

I think I finally understood the shit you wrote. You're basically asking me to talk about the cheating cases at Pride using the accusations of "Big Daddy".

In other words, you want to change the discussion so far instead of recognizing that you were refuted or refute my refutation.

Right?

Well, f*ck you.

The subject is the fight between Guy Mezger and Saku having been cheated and the fight against Wand being given just to keep Saku behaved. Both things that confirm that Saku was protected by the promotion.

Now bring on or shut up and getfo.

Nah, ya lil prick, had nuthin´to do with your English, but everythin´to do with your shitty "knowledge":

1- Your knowledge about the Jap. scene:

You´re challenged to assess Pride 1, & potential fixed fights in Pride afterwards, & cant do it, because, well, it´s beyond your weak knowledge...

> Those fixed fights in early Pride represent the [necessary] evolution from the ol´ Pro-Wrasslin´model to the new NHB/MMA era.
This perspective is obviously too complex for a simple mind like yours... but Takada was a necessary part of that evolution since he made the transition easier to the new era [duality between a single man´s destiny & agenda & a whole entity´s > check the book "History of the French Revolution" by Michelet]

2- Your knowledge about the VT scene:

> If I ask you a comprehensive list of those [potential] controversial fixed fights, be it in Pride, Rings... the Jap. scene overall, or the Russian, American, Brazilian ones... Im pretty sure Ill hear crickets again...

Check: since you like to show off about the Brazilian scene in this part of the forum, tell us which fight of that Brazilian VT card is considered controversial & fixed:

https://www.sherdog.com/events/BVF-14-Circuito-Brasileiro-de-Vale-Tudo-5-796

3- SAKU vs Mezger:

Matt Hume himself (who knows Mezger & them Lion´s Den since the Pancrase days) admitted that:

Sakuraba: "Later I heard that Mezger's contract was only for a one-round fight. I thought, "Ah, then it couldn't be helped." But Shamrock didn't have to get so angry like that. Seeing Mezger getting scolded by him, I felt sorry for [Mezger]."

Matt Hume, Fight Judge: "We knew nothing about that. I don't doubt Ken had an agreement with them. What he claimed he was told was that it would be one round"

In other words, Hume aknowledged a real disorganization inside the MMA Org.

Proof:

Spoiler: Hyan Gracie vs DaPunk

> The Tale of the Tape [from Pride] indicates that there was no weight difference between the 2 fighters.

> Mauro, at the begininn´of the fight, informs that there was indeed a weight difference, but < 10 kg [consequently, no influence on the scorin´]:

Hyan Gracie [5'11 - 200 lbs] vs Minowaman [5'9 - 185 lbs]

> Hume, who was not Judgin´at that fight, but at ringside commentatin´, then contradicts Mauro & informs that there´s indeed a 10 kg difference, but that Minowaman allowed everythin´on the ground.

Overall, what´s the readin´here? > Pride was disorganized, & several layers of info. were spread left & right.
Which one was the most 'reliable', potentially? Them Judges´.

Now, even if you acknowledge that problematic related to the source of info., you still have to deal with 2 essential parameters of the equation:

1- Pride´Scorin´System (too complex for ya), & in particular, the Weight Difference 'criterion' & its influence .

2- Pride´s Judges modus operandi:

QUESTION 8: Who were the 3 Judges at that SAKU vs Mezger fight, & what´s your assessment of their modus operandi when it comes to scorin´fights?

Make me laugh, ya lil prick.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

In other words, Hume aknowledged a real disorganization inside the MMA Org.

• Hyams: I think that any advantage they could use, they would use. The best way I can illustrate that is, as a film crew we'd have to sit and have negotiations with these guys. Any time we'd have negotiations with them, they would always do all of their business through an interpreter. Now, a lot of these guys could speak perfect English. That was the key to me that they could use that barrier to their advantage.
  
  Braverman: Kenny [Shamrock] went out of his mind. Kenny went crazy. He stormed into their [Pride administration's] office. I was going, "This can't be good." He was furious. Have you ever seen Kenny mad? It was one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen. He could eat your head if he felt like it. Kenny foaming at the mouth is enough to scare the s--- out of anybody.
  
  Mezger: They came straight to us. They did the whole dog and pony show. They had all the
  
  low-level management guys standing in a row with their heads bowed. They're being yelled at by their guy. They're apologizing and bowing to us for the misunderstanding. They do what Japan always does: They throw money at it.
  
  Braverman: We had a big meeting. We were able to get some concessions out of them, money and guarantees of future fights. They wanted to make it right. One thing I said in the meeting was, "Do you want me to call Kenny back in here and see what he says?" "No, no, no, no!"
  
  Mezger: What we found out later on was that the lower-level Pride guys made this deal, put the contract together with the stipulation, but did not notify -- well, I don't know if they did or not, but that's what the Japanese said -- they did not know that they made that agreement. You never know in Japan. They make the little guys fall on the swords.
  
  Adelstein: This is a classic Japanese strategy of dealing with foreigners when anything goes wrong. "Oh, you don't understand." It's a classic Yakuza technique as well. You blame everything on miscommunication. It wasn't miscommunication. They probably just didn't anticipate things would go this way, and then they needed to get out of it.
  
  Mezger: Royce's father came up to me after my fight and said, "You got screwed. You won that fight." Here's Helio Gracie walking up to me and telling me I got ripped off.
  
  Adelstein: In cases where there's a Japanese player involved, the confusion is to the advantage of a Japanese person. It's in the best interests of the promoters of these fights. When Japanese people get defeated by a foreigner, the sport's newspapers don't give it as much coverage as when a Japanese person wins. I'm not saying the Japanese are racist. They just identify with other Japanese people.
• Inoue: The Japanese are pretty loyal to their own kind, you know?

 

[gono btw]

Again, Vitor Gracie? (His name is Vitor Belfort).

And again, nothing to do with the thread.

.

damn, mate...you´re such a goof...

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

In other words, Hume aknowledged a real disorganization inside the MMA Org.

http://www.espn.com/mma/features/prideandglory?page=blood

Disorganization, no, no, no, cheating.

• Hyams: I think that any advantage they could use, they would use. The best way I can illustrate that is, as a film crew we'd have to sit and have negotiations with these guys. Any time we'd have negotiations with them, they would always do all of their business through an interpreter. Now, a lot of these guys could speak perfect English. That was the key to me that they could use that barrier to their advantage.
  
  Braverman: Kenny [Shamrock] went out of his mind. Kenny went crazy. He stormed into their [Pride administration's] office. I was going, "This can't be good." He was furious. Have you ever seen Kenny mad? It was one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen. He could eat your head if he felt like it. Kenny foaming at the mouth is enough to scare the s--- out of anybody.
  
  Mezger: They came straight to us. They did the whole dog and pony show. They had all the
  
  low-level management guys standing in a row with their heads bowed. They're being yelled at by their guy. They're apologizing and bowing to us for the misunderstanding. They do what Japan always does: They throw money at it.
  
  Braverman: We had a big meeting. We were able to get some concessions out of them, money and guarantees of future fights. They wanted to make it right. One thing I said in the meeting was, "Do you want me to call Kenny back in here and see what he says?" "No, no, no, no!"
  
  Mezger: What we found out later on was that the lower-level Pride guys made this deal, put the contract together with the stipulation, but did not notify -- well, I don't know if they did or not, but that's what the Japanese said -- they did not know that they made that agreement. You never know in Japan. They make the little guys fall on the swords.
  
  Adelstein: This is a classic Japanese strategy of dealing with foreigners when anything goes wrong. "Oh, you don't understand." It's a classic Yakuza technique as well. You blame everything on miscommunication. It wasn't miscommunication. They probably just didn't anticipate things would go this way, and then they needed to get out of it.
  
  Mezger: Royce's father came up to me after my fight and said, "You got screwed. You won that fight." Here's Helio Gracie walking up to me and telling me I got ripped off.
  
  Adelstein: In cases where there's a Japanese player involved, the confusion is to the advantage of a Japanese person. It's in the best interests of the promoters of these fights. When Japanese people get defeated by a foreigner, the sport's newspapers don't give it as much coverage as when a Japanese person wins. I'm not saying the Japanese are racist. They just identify with other Japanese people.
• Inoue: The Japanese are pretty loyal to their own kind, you know?

 

[gono btw]

• Hyams: I think that any advantage they could use, they would use. The best way I can illustrate that is, as a film crew we'd have to sit and have negotiations with these guys. Any time we'd have negotiations with them, they would always do all of their business through an interpreter. Now, a lot of these guys could speak perfect English. That was the key to me that they could use that barrier to their advantage.
  
  Braverman: Kenny [Shamrock] went out of his mind. Kenny went crazy. He stormed into their [Pride administration's] office. I was going, "This can't be good." He was furious. Have you ever seen Kenny mad? It was one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen. He could eat your head if he felt like it. Kenny foaming at the mouth is enough to scare the s--- out of anybody.
  
  Mezger: They came straight to us. They did the whole dog and pony show. They had all the
  
  low-level management guys standing in a row with their heads bowed. They're being yelled at by their guy. They're apologizing and bowing to us for the misunderstanding. They do what Japan always does: They throw money at it.
  
  Braverman: We had a big meeting. We were able to get some concessions out of them, money and guarantees of future fights. They wanted to make it right. One thing I said in the meeting was, "Do you want me to call Kenny back in here and see what he says?" "No, no, no, no!"
  
  Mezger: What we found out later on was that the lower-level Pride guys made this deal, put the contract together with the stipulation, but did not notify -- well, I don't know if they did or not, but that's what the Japanese said -- they did not know that they made that agreement. You never know in Japan. They make the little guys fall on the swords.
  
  Adelstein: This is a classic Japanese strategy of dealing with foreigners when anything goes wrong. "Oh, you don't understand." It's a classic Yakuza technique as well. You blame everything on miscommunication. It wasn't miscommunication. They probably just didn't anticipate things would go this way, and then they needed to get out of it.
  
  Mezger: Royce's father came up to me after my fight and said, "You got screwed. You won that fight." Here's Helio Gracie walking up to me and telling me I got ripped off.
  
  Adelstein: In cases where there's a Japanese player involved, the confusion is to the advantage of a Japanese person. It's in the best interests of the promoters of these fights. When Japanese people get defeated by a foreigner, the sport's newspapers don't give it as much coverage as when a Japanese person wins. I'm not saying the Japanese are racist. They just identify with other Japanese people.
• Inoue: The Japanese are pretty loyal to their own kind, you know?

ya goof, you dont even understand the google info. you pick here & there... This Pride Glory shit, you have to read between the lines

can you read what I wrote about the different source of info. ?

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Here we go, lil WaCaique...

hmmm... let´s what we´ve got here... How did lil Wacaique deal with those 6 Questions...

QUESTION 1: What is the genesis of that criterion? How has it evolved since the 1990s?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

View attachment 806806

Since you [wisely] ducked & didnt even try to consider this topic, my understandin´is that you´re not qualified to assess it, & for good reasons: be it in Pride or Rings, this is an awfully complex 'criterion' to assess.

I honestly dont believe you have enough legit knowledge to fully understand such an ambitious topic, consequently I´m gonna tell you to sit down & wait for the release of the 2nd part of that 39th Decons about Fedor vs Arona, where that essential 'criterion' & its genesis will be deconstructed:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-39-1-chasin´the-wolf-´round-the-ring-fedor-vs-arona.4126283/

QUESTION 2: Can you tell us about the original demands made by Hoyler regardin´the Fight Configuration for that fight?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Of the demands made the one that matters is that the referee could not stop the fight."

Key word in Gono´s question : "original"

Your answer only focusses on the final agreement.

Here´s what happened: when them Gracies started the negociations, Hoyler [much hespekt to him, tho, since he was an OG OW warrior] dropped this unprecedented request:
- in case of no finish at the end of the regular time, the undersized fighter [himself] would be declared the... winner! (?)

QUESTION 3: Were those demands in the true tradition of the Vale Tudo Era? In particular, what´s the qualitative difference between those demands & the ones made by Carlson when he faced Ivan Gomes or Euclides Pereira?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "as long as it wasn’t in the “VT Traditions”, which I’ve never heard of,"

At least you admit that you´re completely clueless, right, mate? Good.

Now, as cocky as you are, nobody really expected you to know about the Vale Tudo traditions.
But at no point did any VT fighter ask for such a specific Fight Config. since 1934.
Geo Omori, George, Waldemar, Ivan, Euclides, Rei Zulu etc... Nobody.

Even Carlson, when he went straight to Salvador & challenged Euclides, only tried to ask for No Judges, to no avail.

Even Carlson, when he challenged Ivan Gomes, did get that No Judges fight config., but that´s it. And bear in mind that the size difference between those 2 was even more significant:

Spoiler: SAKU G. vs Hoyler

View attachment 806818

Carlson = 167 lbs (supposedly, probably a lil bit more) / Ivan = 216 lbs

What happened in that fight? Between those throws out of the ring by Ivan, Carlson butt-scooted durin´the whole fight till he got the draw. Wise & realistic approach, you might say... but there´s a difference between claimin´a draw & stealin´a win, for the undersized fighter.

All those things Im droppin´here, is all about educatin´ya, since you keep tryin´to show off in the Grapplin´Forum about the Brazilian scene, but the reality is ya dont know shit. Stop pretendin´.


QUESTION 4: What rule change happened @ Pride 13 that is historically, arguably considered an anti-SAKU [by extension, anti Submission Grappler like Catch Wrasslers] rule?

Spoiler: lil WaCaique´s rebuttal...

View attachment 806806

Check: at Pride 13, literally out of nowhere, Pride decided to drop a new rule : the four-point rule was removed.
This clearly favoured wrestlers like Coleman, and non-wrestlers were slowly adjusting to it...
Even Hendo acknowledged it in his interview:

Spoiler: Hendo - Interview

Q: The new rules permit you to sprawl to avoid the tackle and then put the knee in. This is advantageous for you isn't it?

Dan: I think the new rules are advantageous for us wrestlers. Sprawling is our specialty. From this position, landing knees is easy. So I used them. Coleman too, and got a KO [over Alan Goes]. Silva too. When I heard about the rule change, I was very much surprised.

Q: Surprised?

Dan: Before the Sakuraba vs. Silva fight, I never thought the rules would be changed like this. Because the change provided a clear advantage to Silva. Well, since the rules are changed, we will fight according to them.

QUESTION 5: What happened in the SAKU G. vs Vitor Gracie fight that disqualify any narrative about Pride Refs. protectin´ SAKU G. ?

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Vitor Gracie?"

Damn, m´f´kah... you´re really clueless af....

View attachment 806825

Educate yourself:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

Yuji Shimada literally protected Vitor Gracie in that fight & kept him alive [see: multiple stand-ups while SAKU G. was punishin´Vitor with them kicks in the butt scoot position]

Spoiler: About Vitor... Gracie...

Ask Helson... fool.

View attachment 806826

QUESTION 6: Pride gave him 2 options, can you tell the name of that other fighter? Bearin´in mind that Pride perfectly knew about SAKU´s [sado-maso] mind & how he would answer.

> lil WaCaique´s rebuttal: "Fedor?"

Damn, mate... at this point Im really wonderin´ if you´re a genius troll or somethin´..
Obviously not Fedor, the choice was between LHW Lil Nog & Mexican pro-wrassler El Solar.
Pride obviously knew that SAKU G. would never choose the easy option

Spoiler: SAKU G. - Interview

“Rogério was the only choice. If a rumor spread that I only fought weak opponents, people would be laughing at me until the era of my grandchildren. I have to avoid that. We’re both in the middleweight class, but our body types are so different. Well, this is the twin brother of Rodrigo who’s a heavyweight, right? So then, isn’t Rogerio a heavyweight, too? I really should’ve gone with El Solar.”

Now, ya lil, irrelevant, clueless bum.... All these 6 questions showed all the homework you have to do b4 badmouthin´ a legit OG like SAKU.

Show...

Spoiler: Some...

Hes-Pekt, m´f´kah!

View attachment 806828

"Wand fight didnt ocurr earlier bc Pride was not angry at Saku."

Your reply?

"The rule wasnt changed before Pride was angry at Saku."
Again

"Pride cheated a lot. Takada vs Coleman for example."
Again

"Mezger was cheated in the fight against Saku in a very common Japanese way, and very commom Yakuza way"
And again

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

ya goof, you dont even understand the google info. you pick here & there... This Pride Glory shit, you have to read between the lines

can you read what I wrote about the different source of info. ?

What they did with Guy Mezger was a typical way of cheating foreigners, your argument is that this typical and common way of japanese and yakuza deceiving foreigners was an innocent disorganization on the Japanese and Yakuza part. Why should anyone believe you?

 

[gono btw]

"Wand fight didnt ocurr earlier bc Pride was not angry at Saku."

Your reply?

"The rule wasnt changed before Pride was angry at Saku."
Again

"Pride cheated a lot. Takada vs Coleman for example."
Again

"Mezger was cheated in the fight against Saku in a very common Japanese way, and very commom Yakuza way"
And again

lil WaCaique clown, that question about potential fixed fights in Pride, question that you shamelessly ducked, was already assessed long ago:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ntroversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

in Rings:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-wolf-´round-the-ring-fedor-vs-arona.4126283/

There´s only ONE goof duckin´here, & it´s ya, lil prick.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Overall, what´s the readin´here? > Pride was disorganized,

http://www.espn.com/mma/features/prideandglory?page=blood

Adelstein: This is a classic Japanese strategy of dealing with foreigners when anything goes wrong. "Oh, you don't understand." It's a classic Yakuza technique as well. You blame everything on miscommunication. It wasn't miscommunication. They probably just didn't anticipate things would go this way, and then they needed to get out of it.

&

Adelstein: In cases where there's a Japanese player involved, the confusion is to the advantage of a Japanese person. It's in the best interests of the promoters of these fights. When Japanese people get defeated by a foreigner, the sport's newspapers don't give it as much coverage as when a Japanese person wins. I'm not saying the Japanese are racist. They just identify with other Japanese people.

There's no reason for anyone to believe the sh1t you're talking. Pride cheated heavily, and cheated on the Guy Mezger case, and they screwed him up because he didn't want to participate in fixed fights, unlike Coleman. Or will you deny that Coleman's fight against Takada was fixed too?

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

lil WaCaique clown, that question about potential fixed fights in Pride, question that you shamelessly ducked, was already assessed long ago:

The thread is not about that. It's about the things you don't want to discuss.

http://www.espn.com/mma/features/prideandglory?page=blood

Adelstein: This is a classic Japanese strategy of dealing with foreigners when anything goes wrong. "Oh, you don't understand." It's a classic Yakuza technique as well. You blame everything on miscommunication. It wasn't miscommunication. They probably just didn't anticipate things would go this way, and then they needed to get out of it.

&

Adelstein: In cases where there's a Japanese player involved, the confusion is to the advantage of a Japanese person. It's in the best interests of the promoters of these fights. When Japanese people get defeated by a foreigner, the sport's newspapers don't give it as much coverage as when a Japanese person wins. I'm not saying the Japanese are racist. They just identify with other Japanese people.

There's no reason for anyone to believe the sh1t you're talking. Pride cheated heavily, and cheated on the Guy Mezger case, and they screwed him up because he didn't want to participate in fixed fights, unlike Coleman. Or will you deny that Coleman's fight against Takada was fixed too?

 

[gono btw]

What they did with Guy Mezger was a typical way of cheating foreigners, your argument is that this typical and common way of japanese and yakuza deceiving foreigners was an innocent disorganization on the Japanese and Yakuza part. Why should anyone believe you?

well, people are gonna read my arguments & their accuracy, then they´ll read yours, & decide who´s legit as a poster with real knowledge, & who´s fraud.

It iz what it iz.