Americans getting BJJ black belts

[Deleted member 10003]

I say good. Let it keep taking forever for people to get their black belt. I think only people who are really dedicated to the sport deserves one, this way we can see who the real masters are. I think standardizing or making it shorter in any way can only hurt the sport.

 

[TheHighlander]

Belts are relatively meaningless. They are only useful for marketing and for setting up the brackets at gi tournaments. The belt doesn't indicate knowledge level, but there is typically a correlation. It also doesn't indicate mat-skill. You can find black belts that are very knowledgable but not competitive, as well as those that are very competitive and with limited knowledge.

A purple belt tapped a black to claim 3rd place at ADCC last year. One of the reasons you won't see that in gi tournaments very often is that blacks and purples rarely compete against each other in gi (in my experiences there are cases where the rules prohibit it).

 

[Zankou]

One factor that plays a part is the fact that so many Americans have extensive wrestling experience, and grapple at a higher level than their belt because of it.

Mark Kerr won the ADCC absolute, and he's just a purple belt. Doesn't much matter if you have a black belt or not if you go up against a prime Mark Kerr.

 

[VanDamme]

Dont take things out of context here- you guys are talking about submission grappling and BJJ- those are two different arts. Proficiency in one does not indicate proficiency in another.

Put a gi on that same purple belt and he may not do as well against the black belt he was facing. No gi and gi are different games.

 

[Alzi_]

One factor that plays a part is the fact that so many Americans have extensive wrestling experience, and grapple at a higher level than their belt because of it.

Wrestling is a different game from grappling. Having a wrestling background won't directly benefit your jiu-jiutsu but it may help you pick up the BJJ faster. I think their wrestling experience and size/strength advantage can help Americans excel in no-gi competitions but not so much in overall grappling.

 

[Sambo234]

Belts are relatively meaningless. They are only useful for marketing and for setting up the brackets at gi tournaments. The belt doesn't indicate knowledge level, but there is typically a correlation. It also doesn't indicate mat-skill. You can find black belts that are very knowledgable but not competitive, as well as those that are very competitive and with limited knowledge.

A purple belt tapped a black to claim 3rd place at ADCC last year. One of the reasons you won't see that in gi tournaments very often is that blacks and purples rarely compete against each other in gi (in my experiences there are cases where the rules prohibit it).

That is true, however I was not arguing that. The gap between a blue and a purple is significant. The level between purple to black is less than blue to purple.

However, in response to "sandbagging" this is more common in very competitive schools, especially notorious within the Gracie family. Sandbagging also means maintaining someone at a lower skill level that could realistically compete at the next level. So it's really not a "blue beating a brown".

I still stand by that you will rarely see a person of "blue belt skill level" tapping out someone of "brown belt skill level".

 

[Gsoares2***]

people bitch about everything... see im even bitching about people bitching... amazing.

 

[Tom Hishon]

I am waiting for someone to start a American Jiu-Jitsu style that incorporates the fundamentals and takedowns of wrestling and jiu-jitsu submissions. I am going to nominate myself as the leader.

 

[Deleted member 10003]

Wrestling is a different game from grappling. Having a wrestling background won't directly benefit your jiu-jiutsu but it may help you pick up the BJJ faster. I think their wrestling experience and size/strength advantage can help Americans excel in no-gi competitions but not so much in overall grappling.

What are you fucking nuts? Doesn't help directly? It has a direct effect if it helps you pick up BJJ faster. General mat awarness, knowing how bodies are moving by touch, and comfortabless are huge parts of techniques, things you bring to the plate when you switch from wrestling.

 

[TheHighlander]

That is true, however I was not arguing that. The gap between a blue and a purple is significant. The level between purple to black is less than blue to purple.

This will vary a lot depending on the school, but is generally true.

However, in response to "sandbagging" this is more common in very competitive schools, especially notorious within the Gracie family. Sandbagging also means maintaining someone at a lower skill level that could realistically compete at the next level. So it's really not a "blue beating a brown".

Ok, so now that you've completely redefined everything, you are basically just saying that when somebody that barely knows what they are doing they will rarely defeat somebody that is almost an expert.

I still stand by that you will rarely see a person of "blue belt skill level" tapping out someone of "brown belt skill level".

That's not exactly a revelation. You will rarely see an intermediate skill level white tap an intermediate skill level blue either, at least in the conditions that you describe. Certainly not in competition, as you can rarely see ranks mixed up in competition. If you're talking in class rolling, then the brown belt isn't really training very well. If you're not tapping in training, you're not learning.

 

[Alzi_]

What are you fucking nuts? Doesn't help directly? It has a direct effect if it helps you pick up BJJ faster. General mat awarness, knowing how bodies are moving by touch, and comfortabless are huge parts of techniques, things you bring to the plate when you switch from wrestling.

It also ingrains bad habits such as lying on your stomach and extending your arms and neck leaving you vulnerable to subs. You are right that wrestling will give you some clue on how to move on the ground but with the exception of takedowns, it won't help much in terms of technique that can be applied directly to BJJ. In fact you'll have to unlearn some techniques in order to absorb grappling.

 

[TheHighlander]

Wrestling experience helps significantly in all aspects of grappling. Any grappling experience does, and each has it's own pitfalls. Good wrestlers that do bjj for a while are usually the toughest guys to go against.

 

[Sambo234]

This will vary a lot depending on the school, but is generally true.



Ok, so now that you've completely redefined everything, you are basically just saying that when somebody that barely knows what they are doing they will rarely defeat somebody that is almost an expert.



That's not exactly a revelation. You will rarely see an intermediate skill level white tap an intermediate skill level blue either, at least in the conditions that you describe. Certainly not in competition, as you can rarely see ranks mixed up in competition. If you're talking in class rolling, then the brown belt isn't really training very well. If you're not tapping in training, you're not learning.

Yes, but previously when I said that you rarely if ever see a blue tap a brown, I was implying that they were of that skill level, independent of sandbagging.


not really much else to argue

 

[El Gato]

Alot of it depends on the time you put in and how well you do in class , as well as your knowledge of technigues . Some people are slow learners while others are gifted and learn very fast . That being said it takes about 8 to 10 years to get your black belt at my school . It can go quicker if you compete and do well .

 

[Tom Hishon]

I agree, a good wrestler with strong submission skills is a dangerous man.

 

[Fedorable]

I am waiting for someone to start a American Jiu-Jitsu style that incorporates the fundamentals and takedowns of wrestling and jiu-jitsu submissions. I am going to nominate myself as the leader.

isn't Matt Hughes working on this?

This is my instructor:


In 1998, Sean moved to Virginia Beach where he
met Gustavo Machado, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor from the Gracie Barra Academy in Rio De Janeiro. Sean trained six days a
week with Gustavo. On June 14, 2004, Sean became the first black belt under Gustavo Machado in Gustavo's twelve years of
teaching.

So black belt in 6 years and he is super white.

 

[Fedorable]

It also ingrains bad habits such as lying on your stomach and extending your arms and neck leaving you vulnerable to subs. You are right that wrestling will give you some clue on how to move on the ground but with the exception of takedowns, it won't help much in terms of technique that can be applied directly to BJJ. In fact you'll have to unlearn some techniques in order to absorb grappling.

I disagree, it helps with technique that directly applies to BJJ. Just because coleman and randleman are slow learners doesn't mean all wrestlers cannot adapt head positions and I the wrestlers at where I train don't leave their necks vulnerable or lay on their stomachs.

 

[Ybot]

I'm sorry, but I don't see this. Is the point of the tread that American brown belts are so good? How many American Browns placed at the Mudials this year? I really don't know, but would have to think not as many as Brazilian... Sorry, just don't see what brought on this thread.

 

[Deleted member 10003]

It also ingrains bad habits such as lying on your stomach and extending your arms and neck leaving you vulnerable to subs. You are right that wrestling will give you some clue on how to move on the ground but with the exception of takedowns, it won't help much in terms of technique that can be applied directly to BJJ. In fact you'll have to unlearn some techniques in order to absorb grappling.

Just because you have to unlearn a couple things doesn't mean it doesn't help you with your technique at all? You can thell that by putting a really good wrestler with a month of BJJ against a slightly good blue belt.

 

[TheHighlander]

Yes, but previously when I said that you rarely if ever see a blue tap a brown, I was implying that they were of that skill level, independent of sandbagging.


not really much else to argue

I'm saying that your argument is essentially meaningless as you have changed the definitions you are using so that they are the same as the case you are arguing. Deciding that "blue belt" for your argument should be only the people that you think should be blue belts has not real basis in reality. A blue belt is somebody that has been promoted to blue belt, and not any higher by an instructor. No more, no less. There is no hidden meaning and no standard of what is and is not a blue belt.

It is quite possible to be defeat those of higher rank, because the rank is virtually meaningless as it currently stands. If I had to bet on a bjj match between a blue and brown without knowing anything about them or their schools, I would probably bet on the brown (although it's not a bet I would ever want to make). If the blue won, I wouldn't be completely surprised. It's about the athlete, not the strip of cloth that covers 2" of their butt.