Am I too "nice" on the mats?

[kjkguy96]

This isn't about whether or not one should crossface, dig elbows into thighs, etc (though that's always an interesting topic). I guess I'm curious how everyone rolls, specifically against less experienced training partners. I'm a fairly new blue belt and I'm not sure if I'm hindering my progress or not.

Basically, I feel like I relax too much sometimes against white belts. I won't necessarily give them anything (except brand new guys cuz I feel like they should be able to at least try the few things they actually know at this stage), but I definitely don't work as hard against them as I would a higher level. This leads to me being less aggressive and I'll lose position fairly easy sometimes. It's not a huge deal, since I'll be able to reestablish top/dominant position, but I'm wondering if that's counterproductive and is a bad habit to get into.

So I'm obviously not going to treat every roll like a gold medal match, but should I be trying to dominate those that I can? Again, I'm still fairly new, so there's not a ton of guys that I could just easily handle, but I want to make sure I'm progressing, without making someone feel like they were just a grappling dummy.

Overthinking it?

 

[fanboysareevil]

As a newer grapper it's virtually impossible to be too mean in terms of dominating too much, unless you're with a small female white belt or something. It's when you start getting more taps than there are minutes in the round that I feel like some slow down is warranted.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Against white belts your goal needs to be to challenge yourself. Put yourself in awful positions, and work on moves that aren't your money techniques.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Against white belts your goal needs to be to challenge yourself. Put yourself in awful positions, and work on moves that aren't your money techniques.

I think this is pretty bad advice for a new blue belt like TS. He's not to the stage yet where beating white belts is so effortless that he needs to give up position. White belt rolls are the only times he's going to be able to work from dominant positions, he's not going to get those very often against more experienced blue belts or higher belts.

TS, pressure is a skill, keeping position is a skill, staying tight during transitions on top until you get a sub is a skill. These are all the things you should be practicing when you get on top against white belts. You don't have to go fast, but you should try to be as tight as possible with good technical pressure all the time. You need to work, these skills don't develop in a vacuum. If you're giving up top position to white belts, that means your top position sucks. You should strive to make it tighter to the point where you don't give up positions once you have them. So yeah, you are too 'nice' if by nice you mean you're not trying very hard in the roll (not actually nice btw, just lazy). There's a time and a place for white belts to get easy escape, it's when you're working technique. During rolling they need to feel what it really takes to get an escape against someone trying to hold them down just as much as you need to feel what it takes to really keep someone down. Not trying to be harsh, but if you're not working on skills development you're wasting your mat time.

 

[discrawg]

Your goal should be to step off the mat, better than when you stepped on. Having that mind set directly influences the way you train.
If you or your training partner wants to go hard to prepare for a competition, feel full power, or for general conditioning; then go as hard as you can. Going hard isn't bad, unless you're doing it without purpose. Use this time to hone your strengths to a sharp edge.
Conversely, if you are training with someone with much less experience; this is the time to try new things, with a specific purpose. Use these rolls to actively fill the holes in your game. Do the things you are not good at, practise things that are difficult for you.
If you're training with someone stronger than you, figure out how to nullify it, training with someone smaller, then try and keep up, practice you're speed and movement.

 

[1PBCE1]

Man those two posts above were great. All the advice you need imo.

 

[kjkguy96]

I agree, I think they hit the nail on the head. The more I think about it, the more it sounds like I'm potentially taking away from my partner's progress as well if I'm not giving them full effort (without going "competition speed").

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Against white belts your goal needs to be to challenge yourself. Put yourself in awful positions, and work on moves that aren't your money techniques.

I agree with this. I just work on positions that I'm uncomfortable in and try techniques that I'm not very good at if I am dominating my partner. Improving your weak areas is a primary goal of training, right?

 

[Based and White Pilled]

I think this is pretty bad advice for a new blue belt like TS. He's not to the stage yet where beating white belts is so effortless that he needs to give up position. White belt rolls are the only times he's going to be able to work from dominant positions, he's not going to get those very often against more experienced blue belts or higher belts.

TS, pressure is a skill, keeping position is a skill, staying tight during transitions on top until you get a sub is a skill. These are all the things you should be practicing when you get on top against white belts. You don't have to go fast, but you should try to be as tight as possible with good technical pressure all the time. You need to work, these skills don't develop in a vacuum. If you're giving up top position to white belts, that means your top position sucks. You should strive to make it tighter to the point where you don't give up positions once you have them. So yeah, you are too 'nice' if by nice you mean you're not trying very hard in the roll (not actually nice btw, just lazy). There's a time and a place for white belts to get easy escape, it's when you're working technique. During rolling they need to feel what it really takes to get an escape against someone trying to hold them down just as much as you need to feel what it takes to really keep someone down. Not trying to be harsh, but if you're not working on skills development you're wasting your mat time.

I think this varies from person to person. I don't train with a gi frequently, but no gi I am roughly equivalent to a new blue belt or a strong competition white belt. Obviously, this means that I am not an expert on how to get great at bjj. HOWEVER, I have a decent wrestling background and after 6 months of training I learned that there are a lot of guys that get lumped into my experience level or who are a rung below me that I can pretty easily maintain side mount on indefinitely. I gain nothing from doing that when I roll with these guys, so I work on new positions and techniques that I'm not as comfortable with yet (which there are many of). My point is not that someone of my skill level should be going light or whatever when we can beat someone easily. Only that I do think it makes sense to work on your weaker areas instead of just dominating them from start to finish.

I totally agree with most of your post, btw. My sentiment is in the context that I am already capable of holding the position on my opponent. I only disagreed with your complete dismissal of the post that you quoted.

 

[Forceof1]

2stripe white belts are where you need to hone your submission skills.

I use to rep out armbars on them. Be nice and show them what they are doing wrong. This helps them learn, and as they improve their defense - forces you to get better / expand your submission chain to catch them.

Though in a 5 minute roll, I would get 2-3 taps, then in the last minute or do let them start in mount. I'd still try to escape / sweep / submit them though.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

when i go against guys significantly below my skill level, ill often go hard and get a sub, and then ease off in certain areas to lead them to hitting a move (often ill try to open up a move that we worked on technically earlier in the day). then once they hit that, I give them some time to work and then turn it back on.

also, sometimes there are guys significantly below my skill level, but theyre strong in areas that im weak in, so i get myself into those positions and try to benefit from that.


The worse thing in these situations is sometimes tricking yourself into not working hard. ill admit there were times were a guy surprised me with how well he was doing, and part of my mind was like 'ok just turn it off and let him get his position/sub', when really it was my own denial that i had legitimately lost position to someone I thought it wouldnt happen against. definitely dont let that happen!

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think this varies from person to person. I don't train with a gi frequently, but no gi I am roughly equivalent to a new blue belt or a strong competition white belt. Obviously, this means that I am not an expert on how to get great at bjj. HOWEVER, I have a decent wrestling background and after 6 months of training I learned that there are a lot of guys that get lumped into my experience level or who are a rung below me that I can pretty easily maintain side mount on indefinitely. I gain nothing from doing that when I roll with these guys, so I work on new positions and techniques that I'm not as comfortable with yet (which there are many of). My point is not that someone of my skill level should be going light or whatever when we can beat someone easily. Only that I do think it makes sense to work on your weaker areas instead of just dominating them from start to finish.

I totally agree with most of your post, btw. My sentiment is in the context that I am already capable of holding the position on my opponent. I only disagreed with your complete dismissal of the post that you quoted.

If you have a decent wrestling background, then you're better than the sort of person I'm talking about. I don't give two shits about your specific rank in BJJ if you have enough grappling skill that it's easy for you to dominate white belts. The point is that if it's easy for you to dominate someone, then you can work on specific new things or work from bad positions. If it's not easy for you to dominate them, then that's when you work on maintaining top position, staying tight through submissions, etc. You should always strive to make the roll useful in some way in terms of skills development, and if TS is a genuinely new blue belt with no prior grappling experience then the only time he's going to have to work on top and submitting people is rolling with white belts, and he should do so rather than just let the escape.

The reason I dismissed the post I quoted was because it was a throwaway answer that you see a lot but didn't take TS's skill level into context at all, and in that context it wasn't good advice. It's often good advice to work on your weaknesses, I let lower ranks start on top all the time, but when I'm on top against someone my level or better I sure as hell work on maintaining, progressing, and finishing, and TS should as well.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Let's just say I'm not a new blue and every single second of a roll I'm trying to dominate white belts.

If I'm destroying them too much I will give them side or my back, sometimes just play guard and work different sweeps.. but I'm still trying my best.

As a new blue I could barely submit whitebelts. Dominate position yes, but rarely sub or sweep them cleanly

 

[Leify]

I'm a brown belt. I always try to tap white belts multiple times during the course of a roll, usually exploiting an issue with their grappling the first time, and then repeatedly exploiting the same issue. After the roll, if they are receptive, I take 30 seconds to tell them what they were doing wrong and some details on how to focus on correcting it.

I get reps on a technique, and they get a teachable moment that probably sticks with them, even if they can't necessarily correct it immediately.

It's likely not your place to teach a white belt, but being able to see weaknesses, exploit them in quick order and get quality, resistance reps on techniques is valuable, even if you want to go about it in a nice way and can't do it against every white belt.

 

[freaky]

You're doing it right. When going against a lower belt, it's best to train on your technique. People roll too hard in general imo.

Stop trying to outpower the other guy. Use technique, leverage, etc. If you lose position, then maybe it's your technique and not necessarily you not gripping hard enough. This way both of you are learning.

I hate it when rolling with someone super aggressive and explosive. Use the damn technique and stop trying to power yourself out of everything. I also love it when they gas themselves and cry about cardio. No, I don't have better cardio than you, I just don't waste my gas.

 

[Ton]

We need that 'presh' flowchart in this thread. I cant find it for some reason =-/

 

[Uchi Mata]

You're doing it right. When going against a lower belt, it's best to train on your technique. People roll too hard in general imo.

Stop trying to outpower the other guy. Use technique, leverage, etc. If you lose position, then maybe it's your technique and not necessarily you not gripping hard enough. This way both of you are learning.

I hate it when rolling with someone super aggressive and explosive. Use the damn technique and stop trying to power yourself out of everything. I also love it when they gas themselves and cry about cardio. No, I don't have better cardio than you, I just don't waste my gas.

That's interesting. For the most part, I think most people don't roll hard enough.

I'm always curious what people think good technique looks like. Do you think that it doesn't look explosive or aggressive? When I watch high level matches, presumably the best guys in the world, everything they do looks aggressive and explosive to a degree I wish I could match. And when I roll with other brown belts or black belts, I have to grip pretty hard even when I'm using good technique if I want those moves to work. It is a physical sport after all.

I like about BJJ that most people focus on technique over physicality more so than in other grappling sports (my experience with Judo was almost always 'get stronger' as the answer to why I wasn't throwing people, which was useless), but you can take it too far. Even perfect technique requires a lot of physicality to execute against anyone decent. So many guys wonder why they don't do well in rolling against upper belts, and so often a big part of the answer is that they're simply not trying hard enough.

 

[McClure]

If you're a blue belt then you're still a beginner. I don't think it's your job to let the white belts work their techniques unless you have a huge size advantage or against a female grappler thats inexperienced etc. Do you best and give them something to aspire to imo.

 

[Russky]

I am a blue belt as well. When I roll with beginners I am trying to give them enough advantage to make it a more or less equal fight. I let them get into their favorite position, I move slower and I do not use force and pressure on them.

For instance, I submit them with move of the day couple times to show that it really works, and then allow them to get into position to start the same move. Once they catch that move I'd start making it more and more difficult for them. They work on something they understand, and I work on my late defenses. If they tap me once or twice in the process I feel that this is the right level of intensity. If they still "do not get it" I pull them out after the class and explain the details they missed.

I love teaching, and I feel that teaching gives me much more skills than just practicing.

 

[bowened]

It appears that a lot of people think newbies are delicate flowers who can't handle adversity on the mat. I disagree. For people with any level of grit, that starts to show up pretty early in the bjj lifecycle. They can handle your pressure. They can handle your subs. They're not going to quit because you subbed them 4 times. If they do quit, good riddance--they weren't going to last anyways. Did you ever stop to think maybe they actually want and value a higher level of intensity from you rather than a roll a lackadaisical charity roll?