1. We now have a new forum called Fantasy Matchup Discussion. Access it here

Alternative single leg finish

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by jack36767, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    @tekkenfan i got something right up your alley. Also called a lock-slide single, I see a lot of mma guys in this situation unable to finish, obviously don’t have to start on your knee and helps to be taller. Enjoy
     
  2. cjd

    cjd Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    236
    Interesting. Not a fan of the tree top finish?
     
  3. cjd

    cjd Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    236
    Interesting. Not a fan of the tree top finish?
     
  4. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    I love the treetop finish. Different situations and different body types lend to different things. This finish isn’t actually that good for me because I’m short. For my very long and lanky, as well as tall for the weight teammate... this finish was perfect for him. In fact part of why this coach is showing this at the clinic is because he had my teammate and a couple others start using it that year and their takedown percentages went up enormously. The other thing it does is help keep you in good position as you wrestle to finish, which creates other finishes simply from that. Doesn’t require nearly as much strength as it looks either

    I’ll be completely frank I don’t know exactly how well this applies to sport bjj. But I have seen loads of mma fights where someone’s lock slid up to the crotch but they tried to go behind and lost it. I also like showing wrestling is more than 3 basic moves lol
     
    westfield and Typrune Goatley like this.
  5. cjd

    cjd Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    236
    It's an interesting finish - i haven't seen it before. I'm actually leaning towards trying to be high in the crotch like that off all my single leg attempts because the most common reaction in sport BJJ is to immediately turn and kick out as hard as possible (and run out of bounds if you can't clear). For the longest time, I was a die-hard tree top partisan, but have oddly enough enough had more trouble finishing that way with BJJ guys than I did with wrestlers.
     
    westfield and jack36767 like this.
  6. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    It will come off of a “power single” a lot. Think double leg footwork, But instead of going for a double or high crotch. You hit it almost like a blast double but to one leg with your head in single leg position. If that doesn’t make sense I apologize.

    And I think there’s a place for treetop but too many coaches make it their end all be all. Which is never a good thing. Have a system but always adapt and adjust
     
    Typrune Goatley likes this.
  7. ChainFlow

    ChainFlow Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    1,862
    Location:
    Mostly the Midwest
    I've been ranting to our MMA guys about the criminal underuse of trips/reaps in that situation for years. More from a judo perspective, but yeah - anytime someone is against the cage in that semi-stuffed single, ouchi-gari and kouchi-gari are wide open. Kayla Harrison ended up using the ouchi-gari (your same leg against their near leg instead of the far as in this video) in her debut.

    Good vid, thanks.
     
    Typrune Goatley and jack36767 like this.
  8. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Just remember with this it’s not a “trip” popping your hips in is what creates the finish. Sweeping the leg is just the coup de gra (I think I misspelled that lol)
     
    Typrune Goatley and ChainFlow like this.
  9. ChainFlow

    ChainFlow Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    1,862
    Location:
    Mostly the Midwest
    Yep, same mechanics in Judo. Kouchi gari has the same basic mechanics as a really clean ankle pick just with the foot instead of the hand for the “cherry on top” finish that if you did everything else right you barely need to do.

    But every time I call it a “reap” one of the wrestlers asks “do you mean a trip?” So I’ve kinda just given in on that fight
     
    Typrune Goatley likes this.
  10. tekkenfan

    tekkenfan Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,864
    Likes Received:
    1,312
    interesting not having there leg i the center stepping your feat past them should kill the power of there whizzer too right?

    speaking of tree tops i sue to love them if eel they work alot better at like 185 and above though 170 n below guys it shard to finish them usually the takedown is easy but good guys will scramble to grab a leg or have plenty of space to scramble back up
     
    Typrune Goatley and jack36767 like this.
  11. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    'Tilting' guys with the high crotch grip like this is definitely higher percentage the heavier they are; grapevining the leg and landing in halfguard is not a bad way to start with more scrambly guys too.
     
  12. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Something interesting to note; Khabib used this exact takedown to put Iaquinta down on the canvas from against the cage in the second round of their fight together.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
    westfield likes this.
  13. tekkenfan

    tekkenfan Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,864
    Likes Received:
    1,312
    the
    one jack posted or a tree top
     
  14. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    The hi-c lift, though funnily enough he also used the tree top as well, in round 1.

    Al was focused on turning and limp-legging out (which he did well at throughout the fight), but he (Khabib) turned it into a leg drag/go-behind to finish.
     
    westfield likes this.
  15. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    This isn't a hi-c lift...
     
    westfield likes this.
  16. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Well i suppose any time is a good time to debate about what colour our dresses are my friend.

    So he has a high crotch grip, and he uses it to lift him into the air; on a scale of one to ten, how unreasonably irrational would you say someone is being if they were to see this and subsequently use the phrase 'high crotch lift' to make a distinction or indication of what they were referring too in a conversation ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  17. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Ah rmongler, you claim I’m being pedantic because you clearly have not done the technique. It is not a high-crotch grip, find me one “head-outside-single” or “high crotch” Technique.. where
    1. The head is deliberately on the inside
    2. You keep your arms straight
    3. You pop your hips in and kindly sweep the foot out whilst keeping arms straight and head inside
    4. I’m genuinely curious if such a technique exists. Because trying such a grip with the head to outside is a good way to get your arms ripped off
    While I’m aware you can be pedantic about where the grip itself is. That’s a myopic and deliberately ignorant view of the technique as a whole. It’s rather disappointing coming from you. Especially because I know for a fact that you are well aware of what technique comes to mind when one says “high crotch lift”

    It’s not a “dress color” question... techniques must be looked at as a whole
     
    westfield likes this.
  18. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Boy howdy...

    Am i aware? Suppose im nobody. So you say that locking your grip high in the crotch seam is not a 'high crotch grip'; what is the inwardness of that, if it could be explained?

    If we wanted to be pedantic, i might say high crotch lift with grapevine finish would be the most verbiously descriptive; if you wanted to be casual, you could have your own special name for it, like say 'broomstick', or 'crack hold', or maybe 'crack up', or perhaps 'crack pipe', or 'rocking the crack baby', and so on; if you wanted to be brief with someone who's not actually seen anything like it before, you might go with a short description of what he's doing (without a full description), simply to indicate what different things you are talking about.

    One should absolutely look at techniques as a whole... and even greater wholes still; similarities and relationships between techniques. There's more than one face to ambiguity; it can steer you more wrong by equivocating things that ought not be equivocated; it can steer you less wrong by implying a relatedness of things, helping make connections and slot things into place, where before the connexion might have been mentally isolated; it can imply implications themselves, leaving an adaptive 'open end' for people to make breakthroughs or further developments, without hamstringing themselves in reductive systematization.

    Or in other words basically, whats a hill you should go to war over? Whats a hill worth dying on? Is this really about technique? Not this one, not this says I.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  19. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    First, let's get this out of the way. We both know you are aware of what's meant when talking about a high crotch lift. Deliberately feigning ignorance on a topic you often talk about and study from afar does nothing to promote productive discourse.

    You know, I was really curious if you could find an actual example of a "high crotch" or "high crotch lift" with the head to the outside and arms straight... I knew that you'd either pull up something or resort to trying to make it about you briefly watching something the video and wanting to categorize it according to your ideas that don't pan out in actual practice. The "short description" you are so desperately trying to use as your excuse for incorrectly labeling it is already taken. In fact I even stated in the OP, the more common and appropriate name for it would be a lock slide single, due to the lock on a head inside single sliding up to the crotch. Your brief description would actually create more confusion since the "high crotch and head outside singles" operate on different mechanics in their execution and approach. As well as the fact that people already think of a different technique than what I showed here when you say "high C lift"

    If you would actually "try" this technique, then "try" a "high crotch or head outside single" lift and compare them. You would understand why I am very deliberately differentiating the two. I have multiple reasons why I don't equivocate them that have nothing to do with reductive systematization.

    See to me this really is a question about technique, not something else. I know your quirks well enough now to know that you won't actually answer or give counter examples, which is fine. By all means call them the same thing incorrectly.

    TLDR: To all the people reading this... I would strongly recommend not trying to do this as a "hi-c lift" if your head is on the outside and you try this finish, your shoulders will get ripped out, and finishing a head outside single with straight arms would be.. difficult
     
    westfield likes this.
  20. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    One wonders how Cain Velasquez or Daniel Cormier have possibly survived too this day.

    Well, Cain hasn't held up too well, perhaps we have discovered the truth here in this to blame. Though it seems to still leave the question open of how Daniel's ligaments didn't instantly explode upon lifting Barnett, Gustafson, or Jones with hands locked under while his head was on the outside.

    >Well if you look closely you will see his arms are slightly bent rather than fully locked out which is what i will assume you meant for the purposes of this argument, not that i want to be pedantic or anything...

    On a completely related note, in your view, which single leg should be the only single leg to get to be called single leg? Obviously there are some variations of a theme here or there, but they can't all hog the same rhetorical real estate, can they?

    Well, yes they can.

    If i were coaching you and said 'the single is there!' What's the first thing that would come to mind? What could be coming too mind? Is there potentially more than one answer? If so, would it be valid to say they are all answers? If so, then why?

    There are two basic problems here in my mind. The first and perhaps simplest is the presumption of a shared terminology in the first place. We all speak english here, but we don't all speak the same language. In a sport with as much regional colour as wrestling, this should not be an unobvious fact. Me saying 'single!' to an athlete could mean a lot of things, but in our shared context it would mean something specific, it would mean whatever it is in particular that was worked on leading up too that event. If you want a perfect illustration of this fact, try typing in 'lock slide single' or 'lock slide wrestling' into youtube, and see how many results will actually show you what you're thinking of.

    In cases where there might be confusion or cross purposes over terminology, a reasonable cool-headed response could be to simply to ask for clarification, and often in turn provide yourself, then you will see if you are or are not in fact talking about the same things, and carry on your discussion of function from there. You might or might not then be pleased to have a discussion over the relative merits or synthesis of different naming systems if you wish. Agreement is of course optional. All of this rather than going strait for the jugulars post-haste. I will say my response to your jab was studiously pointed, but i did still leave the door open for just such a possibility. It does take two to tango.

    We are all speaking of the same pure noumenal realm of grappling dynamics beyond the cloak of verbal phenomena, after all. I don't really get upset at people mistakenly calling cross arm locks 'arm bars', for example, any more than i might get upset at the dutch for using the wrong word for airplane, nor do i presume them gravely touched in the head in some way so as to have be able to arrive at such a mistake. That would only really be an applicable possibility if we actually had the same shared context. Elsewise, it would be a category error to think such a thing.

    It is perfectly reasonable to have terms that contain yet more terms, constituting a category, rather than nominalistically insisting on every given thing having only one single manners of reference. Could we live in a world where things like 'crack holds' could be subsets of things like 'high crotch lifts'? Yes we can.


    The second problem is... well first, correct me if this whole matter is just a foible of miscommunication here, but you gave me a strong impression that you figured that someone lifting with a high crotch grip with arms extended and the head outside was, if not impossible, then at least highly disadvantageous, and hence had a certain expectation of not finding any examples at all, or at least, not any examples amongst high level competition, or at the very least, not any examples so explicitly clear cut that you would be unable to split hairs over it for the purposes of face.

    So the second problem is, in so many words, asking people to damn their lying eyes. Someone looking at examples in reality would see things like Cormier flipping people over with power cleans, and the foregoing would effectively be saying to them 'well according to my personal theoretical model of grappling dynamics, such a thing could not be taking place, so you can't actually be seeing what you are seeing'; but they are seeing it...

    To say it's impossible would be plainly counterfactual; to say it is never the less suboptimal, would be debatable. It's not an impossibility i could even agree to some extent, but it might also be a moot point either way, if in sparring lifts against the cage you find use for either head position for the pop, whichever you can get. I'd always leave the door open anyways, at any rate.

    You can find a lot of different demonstrations of various high crotch lifts from demonstrators of varying professionalism (which they all call high crotch lift). Many show going elbow deep with at least one arm; some show locking the hands, others show varying grips, with one arm in and one around the waist; which arm is doing which on what side can vary as well. Some show a finish by using just one leg as a lever for a dump, others like to switch to both legs, for a 'double dump' if you will. Carl Adams show the in and out grip for his lift. Kary Kolat locks underneath the hamstring near the knee when showing his lift, and actually finishes with a cartwheel, assuming an elbow block. (As an aside, i hope it continues to become more obvious how insisting that the generic term 'high crotch lift' refers only to a single certain kind of lift in particular quickly becomes problematic.)

    Watching a high level practitioner like Cormier perform a move in praxis though, dealing with very heavy 'loads', when he does do a major lift, he does not usually go in elbow deep, and he does usually keep the hands locked, and in a lot of cases, his head is outside too. A man of Daniel's build against the sort of opponents he usually faced would have little trouble getting in elbow deep with the help of the cage, if he so desired, yet almost every time, he would go hands deep and lift with the arms extended. I don't think it is for no good reason. The biomechanical similarity to how one might jerk a barbel a number of times one's own weight is, i would wager, not a coincidence.
     
  21. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    You know rmonger, this is a neutral observation, It truly is. Your tendency to be deliberately overly obfuscate and lengthen your responses. To the point it might be called Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is.. fascinating. Not fascinating because I have trouble understanding, but because the amount you do it is directly correlated to how theoretical your ideas are vs. practical/experienced based. Again purely neutral observation. Btw.. I asked for an example of a high crotch lift with hands locked, arms straight.. and head on the "inside"

    I see your confusion as well, I find it reflective of my point I made about you having ideas based off watching YouTube, but having little practical experience in either executing or teaching the technique. However, not being able to find the technique on Youtube is not a valid argument for your point. The amount of techniques that are either not tagged and require digging through playlists listed just under "camp/clinic" or the clinicians name is quite staggering really. Then the amount of techniques and variations NOT on YouTube is higher still, which leads to the next point rather well..

    While one can very well argue that wrestling could be much more uniform in its nomenclature or "academic vocabulary" if you will. You will find that across wrestling the names of leg attacks are almost always based off the position of the head. This distinction is made for very valid reasons, because the head position dictates the rest of the technique more so than almost any other factor. When one says "single leg" it is pretty much universally understood that one is referring to the head being on the inside.. unless one deliberately refers to the head outside single. One of the reasons for the blurring between the between the terms high-crotch and head outside single is to help this distinction between head position on the different attacks. Now you can quibble about nomenclature if you'd like but I have very practical reasons for why I say calling this finish a "high crotch lift" is misleading and incorrect. Again, I encourage you to actually experiment for yourself rather than just depending on YouTube.

    (which is my main concern btw, you almost always base your ideas off of watching YouTube and making assumptions without practical backing.)

    Back to the technique, Again, on this single leg leg finish, the arms stay straight (or as close to straight as possible), throughout the finish, with very little actual power-clean or snatch motion, with the hips popping in just enough to take weight off of the leg being swept out (oh if you find a high crotch/head-outside-single where you sweep the leg out.. please show it, it will expand both our knowledge..). All variations of high crotch lifts require something of a squat or deep enough hinge to create elevation. I have also yet to see a high crotch lift where you deliberately want the opponent to pull you up into the position for the lock slide/crackhold finish. I have been around multiple good coaches who have taught all the variations you can think of for a high crotch lift or any head outside attacks and none of them would call this a high crotch. I have also seen coaches when teaching this technique troubleshoot student error and one of the most common errors is trying to make it more like a high crotch lift, but what do practical matters have to do with theories ;)

    You seem to be the one who has chosen this as a "hill" for some reason. While you said you looked at the technique holistically, you seem more worried about where the grip ended up than the entire technique and its mechanics as whole. I encourage you to get on the mats and experiment yourself and to gain an understanding of how much the difference on head position matters when describing techniques. If you in your experiments come up with an effective head outside/high crotch attack where you coming nearly to standing straight-up and sweep the leg out in a similar manner to the original technique, please show it. I am not being sarcastic or even mean spirited. I'd like actual examples.
     
    westfield and TheGZA like this.
  22. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,343
    Likes Received:
    3,716
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    In my experience It tends to be directly correlated with the few times i've gotten into a spate with you. (A mans world is that which concerns him and all that.)

    So often because each time, like this time, i get the sense on some level that we are actually talking past each other, and quite probably not actually disagreeing over what you might think we might be disagreeing over, so i would endeavor to ensure there are no cards left off the table to present what it is exactly that is meant and find out exactly what is meant from however many angles it might take.

    It's like...
    >'this is a good thing'
    >'what do you mean this isn't a good thing? here are all these details that make this thing work, and why that thing doesn't work'
    >'well this is all nice, but, isn't that what i just said? and what do you mean it doesn't work? you just showed it yourself'
    >'here are some more details about...'

    Same words, different language. Whats the real issue here? What would be the most charitable way of solving such an issue?

    I usually appreciate your posts jack (even if i don't always show it), or rarely find myself motivated enough to quarrel when i don't, but i think i can understand more now why more than one poster over the years has at times professed fault in your approach or attitude. You've got a talent for attracting the worst in people and finding yourself in heated exchanges.

    Really; i approved of the move in the OP, i pointed out an example of it being used by a prominent fighter In Khabib, and also a related example favored by his training partner in Cormier, who very well likely was the one who taught him that move in the first place even. If you watch fights, Brad Katona, who won the ultimate fighter recently, and who just so happened to be coached by Cormier over the season, also demonstrated the effectiveness of a lift like this against the cage in his fight vs Jay Cuccinello (as it happens, his head was on the inside). You can see several cases of this approach being used successfully at a high level. It's a pretty great wrinkle all things considered. What's there to dispute about? The only thing really left to disagree over was... vocabulary. I said as much from the very beginning. It's not the only time i've had this sort issue with you (and only you really) before either.

    I do think the fact that the specific picture i had in mind here was in terms of cage fighting (i don't know how big you are on following MMA but i haven't gotten much of that impression from you before), while you tend to look at it in terms of wrestling qua wrestling, is another thing that has resulted in us talking past each other in the past.

    I think this line, more than anything, shows that we're in different worlds in how we're seeing things here (it might also show an unfortunate tendency to presume the worst in counterparts then also come right out and say so, with predictable results for the character of the discussion thereafter).

    Well, how many different ways could you offer invitations to bridge understanding, or perhaps some fellow feeling, or maybe even essential human elements undergirding success or failure of communication itself across this or most any other topic, before you figure you have an audience not interested (or capable) in that sort of response, and give up the ghost? It's precisely to try to avoid all that sort of heartburn in coming to understand someone else that I'll try to take a more circumspect than frank and critical approach to debate. Sometimes, people will even reciprocate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  23. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Part of why I am very assertive about my opinion is because I am accounting for the way this would happen in mma. Not just wrestling..

    While I take your point. I would still like to see if you have any counter examples... you stated an opinion, I replied and gave technical reasons for my counter one. And while I can be acerbic I still am curious if you have an actual response to that
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.