Adapting TKD to MMA

[Ninja Realist]

Because you don't ALWAYS have to be stable. And because dynamic stability (like when throwing a kick or a punch) is very different from static stability (just standing there). And because speed and additional power you can get can sometimes more than make up for the loss of stability. It can also make the difference between landing that kick and missing that kick and covering up and being punched repeatedly while standing stable.

Sure, you introduce some risks, but you can also open up some new opportunities. You don't ALWAYS do unstable things. People with fast footwork also know how to stand still.

Think about boxing footwork. The traditional, conservative way to move back is to move your back leg first, set it down, then move the front leg back. This is very stable, as you always have at least one leg on the ground, and while moving, you are increasing the distance between your legs, therefore widening your base. Stepping across is discouraged, because it narrows your base. But eventually you also learn to hop back with both feet at once. Sure, it offers far less balance than the traditional step, but it is faster. It can be the difference between getting hit while doing your stable step, or not getting hit at all. You have to take a risk sometimes.

Now, a TKD guy will also know how to step, it's standard. But he will also know that if he crosses his legs occasionally, he can shoot forward much faster and cover more distance. It will also put his hips in a better position to generate power. It's a risk, you sometimes take it.

I simply disagree. I think that even the traditional Thai Stance and Boxing Stance don't do so well in MMA. Many fighters widen their feet a little, or a lot, more than a traditional striking stance. Even traditional Kickboxers like Overeem stand far wider than anyone you'd see in a K-1 match. Because even using pure Thai footwork, which is stabler than pure TKD footwork, will leave you open for a TD.

But am I forgetting anyone?

Can you think of someone in MMA who uses a traditional TKD stance?

 

[philong]

the ppl who are saying tkd is completely useless are completely missing the point of this thread

What i'm saying is that you should train TKD for a little bit, to get the elite footwork and kicking skills that TKD focuses on so much. Moreover, I'm not saying you should give up your bjj training for tkd training, or that you train tkd in a TMA style environment.

The point is that it is beneficial to train TKD in a full contact mma style environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R4viRFbW80

Imagine if one of these guys spent time cross training wrestling, bjj, and boxing. I'd be afraid to step in the ring with them.

I believe that what so many are trying to say (although not too eloquently) is that so little of TKD is useful in MMA that your time would be better spent on a relevant style before adding the limited ability of TKD. So much has to be modified that it turns out basically unrecognizable. Of course, like all styles, it does have some use (which is why I spent a few years training in it, AFTER getting semi-profecient in other styles).

 

[vu]

I believe that what so many are trying to say (although not too eloquently) is that so little of TKD is useful in MMA that your time would be better spent on a relevant style before adding the limited ability of TKD. So much has to be modified that it turns out basically unrecognizable. Of course, like all styles, it does have some use (which is why I spent a few years training in it, AFTER getting semi-profecient in other styles).

Yeeeup...

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

I simply disagree. I think that even the traditional Thai Stance and Boxing Stance don't do so well in MMA. Many fighters widen their feet a little, or a lot, more than a traditional striking stance. Even traditional Kickboxers like Overeem stand far wider than anyone you'd see in a K-1 match. Because even using pure Thai footwork, which is stabler than pure TKD footwork, will leave you open for a TD.

But am I forgetting anyone?

Can you think of someone in MMA who uses a traditional TKD stance?

Yet we were not talking about the stance, we were talking about footwork.

And any standup footwork, whether boxing, Muay Thai or TKD, has to be modified for MMA rules, because they are simply different rules, like you say, and you have to take other things into consideration.

I simply disagree that you ALWAYS have to be planted in an MMA match. If you have Coleman in front of you getting ready to shoot, yeah, it helps. But if Mr. Coleman goes for a high kick and misses, at that particular moment, he cannot shoot, so you don't have to stay planted. In that particular moment, you can sacrifice some stability for speed so you can capitalise on his mistake.

That's what I was talking about. There is a time for everything.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

1) The TKD stance is very very side-ways...almost like a fencer...it has changed even moreso in the past 5 years since it's picked up popularity as a sport. This puts you at a VERY disadvantagous position to throw left-straights. The leg position also leaves that lead leg very vulnerable to low-kicks and puts you at an even further disadvantageous position to check block them. Having your stance very sideways hinders you from effectively kneeing and making teeps...your teeps end up basically becoming a front snap kick, reducing its effectiveness for the teep's actual purpose. The same can be said for making knees with the front leg....your knees end up looking more like Tae Bo knee raises than effective knees with the hip behind them. Back leg techniques work fine...but a certain degree of footwork has to be made to turn your body a bit more square for better back-leg teeps and knees...

This is all fine and dandy, but you're talking about the stance. Nobody is saying that you have to stand sideways in a Muay Thai, different rules, different needs.

Like you, I started boxing after many years of TKD. I was told to stand in a square stance.

It took exactly 2 minutes to do so. Your legs aren't welded in a sideways position, you can adjust. There are also front stances being used in TKD competition, although sideways is the dominant one. I've never had a problem with footwork as a result of this change.

2) TKD footwork doesn't allow you to put your weight behind your punches...there's a certain amount of "planting" you have to do in order to really whip out punches with effective power...I'm not saying you have to be basically flat-footed in order to punch hard, but TKD bounciness/skipping produces more of those "lunging" punches or flailing "head-tag" punches than good hard punches to do damage...

I completely disagree with this. Sure, you can't punch really well while skipping forward, but most people aren't trying to punch while doing that. There is no reason why TKD footwork would hinder you in planting your feet for a punch.

3) TKD's sideways stance and footwork helps produce VERY fast kicks...nobody denies that...but it somewhat retards the amount of power that can be put behind each kick to make them really matter. The lead leg is turned so far in, that the only effective kick you can do with it are very knee-centric snappy kicks (chambered), rather than kicking from the hip. The back leg is much further back, so the additional distance can allow for stronger kicks (but they don't, considering the style TKD kicks...which I won't even get into), but it also telegraphs it more, giving that extra split second to eat a right straight or just simply get jammed. I have a lot of fun with this, whenever I go back to train at my old TKD school because all I have to do is take one big step forward to jam people when I spar...then they're lost.

We'll disagree on this one. Chamber doesn't make your kicks snappy or weak, it's the use of hips that does.

And you can jam anybody if you lunge in just as they kick. It's just that you're sparring under TKD rules, so they can't punch you. Put a Muay Thai guy under the same ruleset and you'll be able to jam his kicks in exactly the same way.

 

[aries]

I completely disagree with this. Sure, you can't punch really well while skipping forward, but most people aren't trying to punch while doing that. There is no reason why TKD footwork would hinder you in planting your feet for a punch.


We'll disagree on this one. Chamber doesn't make your kicks snappy or weak, it's the use of hips that does.

I disagree that skipping around doesn't hinder you planting your feet simply because its evident when amateur boxers make the transition to professional boxing that they don't or can't plant their feet so well because they are used to 'skipping' around more ( I use the term relatively). Amateurs learn to keep their weight lower and less skippy so they can more readily plant their feet for the heavier shots. Skipping lends itself to fast movement but at the expense of power which is fine for more point orientated fighting sports.

Chambering in IMHO does hinder power. I agree that the hips are what give the power but chambering (bending at the knee) makes it much harder to engage the hips effectively. Try and throw your hip round with your knee bent and leg straight and you'll feel the difference. That's one reason that situps are done with bent knees to engage the abs more than the more powerful hip flexors. When you chamber and bend at the knee you negate the contribution of the hip flexors.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

I disagree that skipping around doesn't hinder you planting your feet simply because its evident when amateur boxers make the transition to professional boxing that they don't or can't plant their feet so well because they are used to 'skipping' around more ( I use the term relatively). Amateurs learn to keep their weight lower and less skippy so they can more readily plant their feet for the heavier shots. Skipping lends itself to fast movement but at the expense of power which is fine for more point orientated fighting sports.

Or if you are a fighter who relies on speed and not getting hit moreso than taking and dishing out blows.

As with everything, there is a tradeoff.

Yet, even if you use skips from time to time, this doesn't mean that you have to skip ALL the time. There is a time to make a step and a time to make a skip. It's not an either or thing. People who are used to being light on their feet will sometimes find that a punch is lacking power, true. If you want more power, you plant yourself more. If you want more speed, use lighter footwork. Combine them, or use them as needed. Learning some faster footwork doesn't mean that you're not allowed to use the more traditional, slower one.

Chambering in IMHO does hinder power. I agree that the hips are what give the power but chambering (bending at the knee) makes it much harder to engage the hips effectively. Try and throw your hip round with your knee bent and leg straight and you'll feel the difference. That's one reason that situps are done with bent knees to engage the abs more than the more powerful hip flexors. When you chamber and bend at the knee you negate the contribution of the hip flexors.

I disagree, I think that most people who learned the unchambered kick didn't learn the chambered kick properly, as it has completely different dynamics. It doesn't rely on the pulling of the hip flexors as much as it does on the rotation of the hip girdle, which involves other muscles, including the gluteus, the adductors, etc. They are both using the hip, but in very different ways.

If you try to do a standard Thai kick and just add a chamber, it won't work.

 

[blanko]

Evil Eye Gouger,
have you ever trained/fought mma? Just wondering.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

Evil Eye Gouger,
have you ever trained/fought mma? Just wondering.

No, I haven't. I follow it as a fan, but I have no interest in competing.

 

[Kyun]

No, I haven't. I follow it as a fan, but I have no interest in competing.

I rest my case...you should stop posting trying to give others advice is your experience is limited to Sherdog and DVDs you twit.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

I rest my case...you should stop posting trying to give others advice is your experience is limited to Sherdog and DVDs you twit.

When did I give advice on MMA? I have never given advice on training for an MMA fight on Sherdog.

I gave advice on TKD in a thread about TKD.

In fact, I didn't even give advice, I corrected you when you displayed your utter lack of knowledge.


So go back to your kickboxing gym which gave you a pro-forma TKD blackbelt and try to impress people over there by choking them, or whatever is it that badasses like you do when they aren't looking stupid.

 

[aaron_mag]

How to start a thread that will go 20 pages:

1) Step one introduce a TKD as it relates to MMA thread to standup.

2) ....well actually all you really need is step 1.



I'll bore you guys with my opinion. Of course it will get lost in the vehement point-counter point ravings as everyone brings up their 'facts'.

-Karate based styles (which TKD *is* in the old-school sense, not so much Olympic style) promotes kicking. By having the no low kicks rules they develop a proficiency for high kicks.

-Once someone is a *good* high kicker they *easily* learn low kicks.

-To effectively use these skills in a MMA match they need good TD defense and probably some good hands as well.

-Once they *do* learn the necessary skills they become some of the most complete and exciting fighters in the business.

We can argue forever whether guys like Crocop, Zelg, GSP, etc actually *use* their TMA background and we won't be able to definitively prove it. But don't you find it interesting that so many of the fighters that people get pumped about have a karate based style in their background? Koschek, for example, is an awesome wrestler. His takedowns are insane. He can start a shoot from way out and STILL beat the sprawl.

And yet everyone wants to see GSP/Zelg/Crocop fight. It is because they bring a dynamic level of skills to the table.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

The thing is, aaron, that there are several TKD guys on here, and everyone knows who they are, and none of us are gong on about how everyone should do TKD, or how it's the best, or any of that stuff. We do it for our own reasons, follow MMA, cross-train, and take part in discussions when the topic comes up.

Yet, whenever a thread about TKD comes up, it is immediatelly full of people who do NOT train TKD, but profess to know everything about it.

TKD threads should be closed immediately. Not much good comes of them.

 

[aaron_mag]

The thing is, aaron, that there are several TKD guys on here, and everyone knows who they are, and none of us are gong on about how everyone should do TKD, or how it's the best, or any of that stuff. We do it for our own reasons, follow MMA, cross-train, and take part in discussions when the topic comes up.

Yet, whenever a thread about TKD comes up, it is immediatelly full of people who do NOT train TKD, but profess to know everything about it.

TKD threads should be closed immediately. Not much good comes of them.

I know exactly what you are saying. The current flavor of martial arts is that everyone is a tough guy and they just love 'educating' people that have been doing something for years.

But you can't let it get to you EEG. You know why you train the way you train. Screw anyone else who can't accept that. I don't need their permission to practice jump-spinning-tornado kicks (and yes I do practice them every once in awhile because I think they are fun).

Personally I practice even grappling because it is fun. Despite all the rhetoric I honestly think there is a greater chance I'd use my TKD (kick the guy with the knife then run away) then I'd ever use Sambo. Especially pure groundwork. I just can't see being in a nightclub with a guy in my guard while I look for the chance to sweep. Maybe in getting the throw on someone (Judo style), but then I certainly wouldn't jump on top the guy.

 

[Kyun]

When did I give advice on MMA? I have never given advice on training for an MMA fight on Sherdog.

I gave advice on TKD in a thread about TKD.

Read the thread topic then before you post because it distinctly says "Adapting TKD to MMA".

In fact, I didn't even give advice, I corrected you when you displayed your utter lack of knowledge.

I displayed my utter lack of knowledge by doing what? By stating the facts that Tae Kwon Do is not wise to invest your time into if you have other options. I clearly pointed out that it was my opinion and that there is no reason to dabble into TKD if you can steer clear of it.

So go back to your kickboxing gym which gave you a pro-forma TKD blackbelt and try to impress people over there by choking them, or whatever is it that badasses like you do when they aren't looking stupid.

Please do not be upset because I called your ass out. You admitted to everyone here that you have no prior training in MMA so you shouldn't even be allowed to post about technique. What you should do is go rack up the rest of your daily posts in the heavyweights forum.

 

[CowboyPete]

As far as Cro Cop goes, he was a kickboxer. How many butterfly kicks have you seen him try and pull off in the K-1 ring?

How often do you see Mark Coleman executing a Granby roll? Some techniques from any martial art will not translate well into MMA.

Also, because a guy competes in Kickboxing, he is no longer a Tae Kwon Do practitioner? Vitor Belfort recently had a boxing match or two in between some MMA. Was he no longer a mixed martial artist when he was boxing?

Neither are they Muay Thai kicks, he has kicks of his own nowadays.

A fighter doing what works best for him? RIDICULOUS.

If I offended you TKD practitioners I am sorry, but I will not retract my statements. In the end it will not matter if the fighter studies TKD, Muay Thai, Boxing, Capoeira, Kung Fu etc, it is the fighter himself. In the highest levels of fighting though, I do not see the champions studying TKD. In K-1 Japanese/Dutch Kickboxers and Muay Thai fighters reign supreme. In MMA the people that are on the top studied wrestling, boxing, muay thai, bjj, judo, Kyokushin not TKD and that's a fact.

If it's the fighter and not the style, why exactly are you bashing TKD again?

Fedor Emelianenko was recently quoted as saying "Tae Kwon Do is indispensable" to mixed martial arts. He's also recently started studying it. Whatever knowledge you or anyone else in this thread has to say, I'm willing to take his word over yours.

Some of you ballerinas are taking this argument a little too seriously. I am entitled to my own opinion..if it hurts you so much, close your legs.

Heehee. Easily the funniest thing in this whole thread.

Maybe you should make your opinion much less of a large penis that tries to ravage the ass of everyone who disagrees with you over the internet and more of a "wordish" type thingy.

god there is so much bitching going on. MT,TKD,Karate,Kickboxing ALL BASICALLY THE SAME DAMN THING

Thank you very much.

PS. I've never studied Tae Kwon Do a day in my life so I'm not defending it out of any sort of pride or nuthuggery. I just like pointing out to people when they're wrong.

 

[US Tomato Can]

They are actually a lot different. But some how people think by making things all the same it gives them a de facto equality.

 

[CowboyPete]

They are actually a lot different. But some how people think by making things all the same it gives them a de facto equality.

Of course they've got lots of differences but at the base of each martial art that involves hand and leg striking techniques, you'll find the same principles. Use footwork to position yourself in an advantageous spot for offense or defense, strike with speed and power, use your hips to generate maximum force, etc.

I'm not saying it'd be hard to tell a Kung Fu guy from a kickboxer at all. The detail is where the differences lie.

 

[Kyun]

Um can i verify that i am stationed in the JSA yes... from watching them train harder than any internet warrior in the world even you... i can also verify that you are an idiot who thinks he can intimidate people over the internet (definition of keyboard warrior) which is you... youre probably a 15 year old who bought some UFC dvds and thinks hes a badass.. ...

Once again you are simply making blind accusations of exactly who I am. The only thing that you are aware of is that I post under the name Kyun and have a forum ranking of white belt. If 15 year old kids can go to LSA Anaconda, Iraq and conduct pre-inspection of civilian non-tactical vehicles entering the main entrance or escort hundreds of local nationals on a daily basis then yes my friend
...I am a 15 year old kid.

This same 15 year old kid fought at Incheon indoor stadium November 05 against a fighter from Moobi Gym (K-1 fighter's Su Hwan Lee gym)

oh yea one thing the the DMZ is not a gate.. its a 4000m wide 241km long demilitarized zone.. oh but you would have known that because youve lived in korea..

Pyongtaek City if you wanted to the exact location. I simply said gate because it's easier then saying 4000m wide 241km long demilitarized zone. Why don't you just share more descriptive details that noone gives a shit about. The Joint Security Area is located at 37

 

[US Tomato Can]

Of course they've got lots of differences but at the base of each martial art that involves hand and leg striking techniques, you'll find the same principles. Use footwork to position yourself in an advantageous spot for offense or defense, strike with speed and power, use your hips to generate maximum force, etc.

I'm not saying it'd be hard to tell a Kung Fu guy from a kickboxer at all. The detail is where the differences lie.

There are the same principles in point karate as there are in boxing but they are nonetheless very different in core use and footwork. Muay thai is no different in that regard.