A learning curve for grappling arts thread

[MadSquabbles500]

I want to discuss further this whole concept of one art having a higher learning curve than the next one.

So it seems like it is established here that Judo has higher learning curve than Murican HS wrasslin. The reasons being the jacket adds another dimension.

But I now wish to bring russian sambo into the discussion. I have heard russian sambo is like wrestling with the jacket on. I guess you see many no-gi style takedowns in it. You can shoot in, with your knee touching the ground, and you can take more unorthodox grips. So does russian sambo have higher or lesser learning curve than judo or Murican HS wrestling?

Does the gripping rules have anything to do with it? Judo apparently has very restrictive gripping rules. How does the gripping rules affect the learning curve if at all?

And now I want to also bring in more esoteric styles with different rules like Shuai Jiao for example. You cannot touch knee to the ground but can take unorthodox grips, and grab the pants. Or even something like Schwingen which I believe someone on here has experience with.

On top of this there is Greco-Roman, which has more restrictive rules than freestyle or Murican HS. What is the learning curve of that compared to the other styles? Plus there is no-gi submission wrestling vs the gi bjj. Do you think it is harder to learn gi than no-gi even for matwork?

 

[These Two Hands]

I would be very surprised if there is an objective answer to this question, however if there is one I definitely would like to hear it.

 

[rmongler]

Murican

 

[Gorbag]

The learning curve to become a world champion in any grappling arts is pretty steep I say...

 

[MadSquabbles500]

The learning curve to become a world champion in any grappling arts is pretty steep I say...

I dont consider becoming world champ, but just general proficiency.

 

[Gorbag]

I dont consider becoming world champ, but just general proficiency.

Compared to what? "General proficiency" can be whatever, if you want to be a decent greco-romanian wrestler it will take you years of practice the same with judo, BJJ or Sambo etc...

 

[jack36767]

Compared to what? "General proficiency" can be whatever, if you want to be a decent greco-romanian wrestler it will take you years of practice the same with judo, BJJ or Sambo etc...

This... so much this..

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Compared to what? "General proficiency" can be whatever, if you want to be a decent greco-romanian wrestler it will take you years of practice the same with judo, BJJ or Sambo etc...

Well, I am not the first person to have mentioned this or asked something along these lines

There have been threads before, and people have replied with "wrestling is better than judo for BJJ" and they go on with saying that no-gi tech can be used by the novice much easier, and picked up much quicker than with jacket tech like Judo. Someone even said that newbies at judo will really struggle for the first two years.

So I guess in that sense. I am making a thread about which sport is easiest to rise up to the cream of the crop.

Edit oops, I meant to write I am NOT making a thread about which sport is easiest to rise to cream of crop.

 

[Gorbag]

Well, I am not the first person to have mentioned this or asked something along these lines

There have been threads before, and people have replied with "wrestling is better than judo for BJJ" and they go on with saying that no-gi tech can be used by the novice much easier, and picked up much quicker than with jacket tech like Judo. Someone even said that newbies at judo will really struggle for the first two years.

So I guess in that sense. I am making a thread about which sport is easiest to rise up to the cream of the crop.

The principle of spesificity dictates the outcome - if you are going to be profient in basketball is it then better to train soccer, hockey or baseball, isn’t the best just to train basketball? The same with BJJ if that’s what you want to excel in you should just train BJJ why wasting your time with other stuff along the way?

The same goes with MMA cagefighting; get plenty of realistic sparring and grappling inside the octagon or as close as possible to the rules you will be fighting under is what will take you fastest to your goals.

 

[Zankou]

Well, I am not the first person to have mentioned this or asked something along these lines

There have been threads before, and people have replied with "wrestling is better than judo for BJJ" and they go on with saying that no-gi tech can be used by the novice much easier, and picked up much quicker than with jacket tech like Judo. Someone even said that newbies at judo will really struggle for the first two years.

So I guess in that sense. I am making a thread about which sport is easiest to rise up to the cream of the crop.

That isn't what people mean by saying the learning curve is longer in judo. For any given grappling sport, to become the 'cream of the crop' is always going to take years of grinding training.

They mean that judo throws take years to learn even against a compliant opponent in training, and so are hard to apply in other combat sports as a result. It is frustrating to spend two years training judo and get shut down by a defensive newb bjj player. Or be unable to execute at all nogi.

 

[GKY]

Is it me or are people over complicating the question? When people say Judo has a bigger learning curve it means most throws used in Judo have less room for error than most attacks used in wrestling. If you've only been doing o goshi for a month you obviously don't have all the details, timing, feel for balance needed to apply it against an untrained resisting opponent approximately your size. Even a shitty double that you've only been doing for a month works reasonably well against an untrained resisting opponent approximately your size. None of this even factors in attire and rule issues.

I don't have an answer to the OPs questions since I've never done any sambo. But if I had to take a wild guess I think they use more wrestling style throws and grips than Judo on average but still like Judo throws as well. So maybe the learning curve to apply it on an untrained resisting opponent about your size is less than judo and more than wrestling? I'm really not sure.

 

[Gorbag]

Is it me or are people over complicating the question? When people say Judo has a bigger learning curve it means most throws used in Judo have less room for error than most attacks used in wrestling. If you've only been doing o goshi for a month you obviously don't have all the details, timing, feel for balance needed to apply it against an untrained resisting opponent approximately your size. Even a shitty double that you've only been doing for a month works reasonably well against an untrained resisting opponent approximately your size. None of this even factors in attire and rule issues.

a shitty o-goshi after just a month of training can work just as well as a shitty double legs depending on the circumstances. The question also depend on quality of training in the actual club and less with the grappling art itself...

 

[jack36767]

a shitty o-goshi after just a month of training can work just as well as a shitty double legs depending on the circumstances. The question also depend on quality of training in the actual club and less with the grappling art itself...

This is why I always say to train at th r BEST place possible if available

 

[MadSquabbles500]

That isn't what people mean by saying the learning curve is longer in judo. For any given grappling sport, to become the 'cream of the crop' is always going to take years of grinding training.

They mean that judo throws take years to learn even against a compliant opponent in training, and so are hard to apply in other combat sports as a result. It is frustrating to spend two years training judo and get shut down by a defensive newb bjj player. Or be unable to execute at all nogi.

I am the one saying, I am not referring to becoming cream of the crop.

What I am asking about is more in lines with what you write in your second paragraph.

edit, I just realize my typo.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Is it me or are people over complicating the question? When people say Judo has a bigger learning curve it means most throws used in Judo have less room for error than most attacks used in wrestling. If you've only been doing o goshi for a month you obviously don't have all the details, timing, feel for balance needed to apply it against an untrained resisting opponent approximately your size. Even a shitty double that you've only been doing for a month works reasonably well against an untrained resisting opponent approximately your size. None of this even factors in attire and rule issues.

I don't have an answer to the OPs questions since I've never done any sambo. But if I had to take a wild guess I think they use more wrestling style throws and grips than Judo on average but still like Judo throws as well. So maybe the learning curve to apply it on an untrained resisting opponent about your size is less than judo and more than wrestling? I'm really not sure.

yes thank you. It seems like questions like this will tend to get people who are defensive about the matter come in here and try to shut it down.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

a shitty o-goshi after just a month of training can work just as well as a shitty double legs depending on the circumstances. The question also depend on quality of training in the actual club and less with the grappling art itself...

And those are simply circumstances, and other different factors. We can discuss this topic without even delving into those other items.

 

[Gorbag]

And those are simply circumstances, and other different factors. We can discuss this topic without even delving into those other items.

Your concept of a so called learning curve for martial arts is nonsensical if you don't have a common standard or of measuring.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

Compared to what? "General proficiency" can be whatever, if you want to be a decent greco-romanian wrestler it will take you years of practice the same with judo, BJJ or Sambo etc...

for me to execute a judo throw in a real self defense situation vs. me executing a double leg in a real life situation against a relatively untrained opponent, i will need more practice to execute the judo throw (well, the vast majority of them)

 

[powerBJJ]

for me to execute a judo throw in a real self defense situation vs. me executing a double leg in a real life situation against a relatively untrained opponent, i will need more practice to execute the judo throw (well, the vast majority of them)

prove it go start a fight

 

[Gorbag]

for me to execute a judo throw in a real self defense situation vs. me executing a double leg in a real life situation against a relatively untrained opponent, i will need more practice to execute the judo throw (well, the vast majority of them)

So for you (n =1) a double leg is the simplest takedown then - good for you! Here is the good news, double leg is still a judo takedown, its just not legal as a first attack in international competitions anymore (since 2014) It's still a part of the judo curriculum most places and it may be reinstated in competition in a few year from now.

The double leg throw in judo;