7.62x39 vs. 5.56x45

[MadSquabbles500]

Yes to everything you said/asked. The fragmenting before would have to be a pretty thick/strong barrier.

This isn't ball ammo but here is a test with the 64 gr Speer.
Test starts at 1:35, he mislabeled the pop up in the video. He is shooting the AR at at 1:35 and the 9mm afterward.


Fmj through pork shoulder and wallboard

So the NATO military bullets do not fragment because they are FMJ then?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Just go 7.62x35 if you want 7.62.

or .300 black out

I'm going to build a 6.8 SPC. I've got plenty of 5.56 so there's that. I'm not interested in the 300 Blackout until state law allows for SBR's and suppressors.

I've got a REC7 in 6.8 but it's the original chambering that has since been updated. So between that and the fact it's a first generation (with threads for a can which I've read they only made 300-400 of), I'm thinking I'll park that in the safe. Not sure if or how much something like that will appreciate but I bought it during Obama craze #1 and paid top dollar so at the very least I'd like to get my money back out of it. I bought an ACOG for the Barrett so I can use that on the new build and save mucho dinero.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

I'm going to build a 6.8 SPC. I've got plenty of 5.56 so there's that. I'm not interested in the 300 Blackout until state law allows for SBR's and suppressors.

I've got a REC7 in 6.8 but it's the original chambering that has since been updated. So between that and the fact it's a first generation (with threads for a can which I've read they only made 300-400 of), I'm thinking I'll park that in the safe. Not sure if or how much something like that will appreciate but I bought it during Obama craze #1 and paid top dollar so at the very least I'd like to get my money back out of it. I bought an ACOG for the Barrett so I can use that on the new build and save mucho dinero.

I'd rather have 6.5 Grendel over 6.8. 6.8 carries a bit more energy at muzzle but at 100 yards they are basically dead even and the 6.5 owns the 6.8 from everything after 100 yards.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I'd rather have 6.5 Grendel over 6.8. 6.8 carries a bit more energy at muzzle but at 100 yards they are basically dead even and the 6.5 owns the 6.8 from everything after 100 yards.

I know, I know. But why not both?

I'm reluctant to add another new caliber and I've already got the 6.8 ACOG. That's pretty much the reasoning.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

If 556 is so devastating, then why many states not allow for medium game hunting?

 

[RerouteToRemain]

If 556 is so devastating, then why many states not allow for medium game hunting?

They are probably ignorant to the fact that it is devastating.

You can find many pictures of deer devastated by .223 on Google.

Spoiler

60 gr Hornady from what I've read for the top, unsure on the bottom. I've seen what .223 does to big hogs. The round is nasty. Look at the ballistics gel pictures I posted. Sure it's no 300 wsm but .223 is plenty enough for most animals.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

^^^^^^ Spoiler tags next time maybe?

 

[RerouteToRemain]

^^^^^^ Spoiler tags next time maybe?

Lol my bad. Looked more like meat vs a mangled animal to me so didn't think much of it.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Thanks bro. I'm the most squeamish gun enthusiast I know.

My neighbor was over and we got to (and I don't know how) looking up centipede attack videos. I hard to turn off the one with some duding feeding mice to them. I'd like to think it's the Buddhist in me or something other than just being a pussy.

 

[Roaming East]

If 556 is so devastating, then why many states not allow for medium game hunting?

couple of reasons. Most states' are ignorant towards ballistics (at least the lawmakers making the rules), and your average bubba with a hunting license and gun aint what id call a marksman anyway. I live in Eastern Va and work in a gun shop. Our average white tail tops out to between 175-200lbs, we are NOT hunting big ass Ohio bruisers here. But every year my shop is full of rednecks buying .300WM, 7mm, and 30-06 for deer hunting despite the fact that your average shot for 100 miles of my store is gonna be sub 50 yards. Its why shotguns are so popular among the more experience shooters here (that and dog clubs).

fwiw, .223 DOES require a bit more homework then 'stop by walmart, grab box of ammo' to be effective at hunting. 1-you're gonna need to be more accurate. you arent gonna recover a deer you gut punched or hind quartered with a .223. Hell you probably wont do that with most rounds until you are literally high balling them with something over 160 grains. (might explain the passion for uber cartridges)
2-gonna have to make an effort to actually BUY .223 hunting ammo. too many dudes buying up cheap military grade 5.56 and thinking they are gonna hog hunt with a bog standard FMJ shooting (poorly) at pigs and yotes 100 yards away with a short barrelled AR or MVP predator


but i dont want to turn this into a 'how your average hunter sucks and should stop' debate lol

 

[MadSquabbles500]

couple of reasons. Most states' are ignorant towards ballistics (at least the lawmakers making the rules), and your average bubba with a hunting license and gun aint what id call a marksman anyway. I live in Eastern Va and work in a gun shop. Our average white tail tops out to between 175-200lbs, we are NOT hunting big ass Ohio bruisers here. But every year my shop is full of rednecks buying .300WM, 7mm, and 30-06 for deer hunting despite the fact that your average shot for 100 miles of my store is gonna be sub 50 yards. Its why shotguns are so popular among the more experience shooters here (that and dog clubs).

fwiw, .223 DOES require a bit more homework then 'stop by walmart, grab box of ammo' to be effective at hunting. 1-you're gonna need to be more accurate. you arent gonna recover a deer you gut punched or hind quartered with a .223. Hell you probably wont do that with most rounds until you are literally high balling them with something over 160 grains. (might explain the passion for uber cartridges)
2-gonna have to make an effort to actually BUY .223 hunting ammo. too many dudes buying up cheap military grade 5.56 and thinking they are gonna hog hunt with a bog standard FMJ shooting (poorly) at pigs and yotes 100 yards away with a short barrelled AR or MVP predator


but i dont want to turn this into a 'how your average hunter sucks and should stop' debate lol

So 223 is not at accurate, and needs a good shooter? Does FMJ not have as much stopping power?

 

[RerouteToRemain]

So 223 is not at accurate, and needs a good shooter? Does FMJ not have as much stopping power?

.223 with quality ammo and a good rifle it is extremely accurate.

.223 is actually a great caliber for shots from 25-250 yards. This example will be depending on your set up and bullet weight and barrel length but roughly with a 200 yard zero your bullet will be dead on at 25 yards, 1.5 " high at 75 yards, 2" high at 100, 1.5" high at 150 yards, dead on at 200 yards and 3.5" low at 250 yards.

The black box is the preferred killzone for any caliber. The .223 you would need to be in that zone or at least very very close with a quality hp. With calibers like 300 wsm you don't have to be as accurate because the round is ridiculously devastating. It is drastic overkill.

No fmj is nowhere near as powerful as a hollow point.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Aim well, shoot. If that doesn't do it, shoot again.

Do that with either round, and things will be just swell.

 

[rob mafia]

to fragment, the 5.56 needs a certain amount of velocity. typically around 20", really. most carbines (14.5, 16") don't really have the barrel length to generate enough velocity for decent/effective fragmentation.

that said, the 7.62x39 isn't all that good, either. even the russians switched the AK platform over to the 5.45x39.

i love the 5.56 (and m855), but most people don't use good ammo for their respective rifles.

edit: i'd imagine a round fragmenting would suck for hunting. unless you like your meat to be lead/copper/steely.

 

[IdahoCBR]

edit: i'd imagine a round fragmenting would suck for hunting. unless you like your meat to be lead/copper/steely.

Shoot them in the neck. You'll either sever/damage the spinal cord or the shred the arteries/esophagus. Its a lot of work/time to butcher neck meat anyways

 

[rmongler]

Lol, so many suckers buy into 'stopping power' bullshit, and its all retarded.

there are two things that matter in small arms lethality: shot placement, and penetration. Shot placement to actually hit vitals, and penetration to actually reach vitals, anything beyond that is barely a factor.

If you don't hit the CNS or heart, it doesn't matter if you're using 50 bmg, you're not stopping shit, just hoping they maybe bleed out 10 minutes later (after they've already killed you).

 

[Higus]

http://tacticalgear.com/ak-47-vs-ar-15

Good infographic on AK's vs AR's

 

[Gregolian]

If you don't hit the CNS or heart, it doesn't matter if you're using 50 bmg, you're not stopping shit, just hoping they maybe bleed out 10 minutes later (after they've already killed you).

Wouldn't .50 BMG center mass just rip a person's insides to shreds or is it moving so quick it just passes through?

Plus I swear I've read stories of that round hitting people in the shoulder/leg (not necessarily the guy was aiming for the shoulder it just happened) and blowing limbs off and depending on how far away from the firing position it can punch baseball sized holes in people on the exit wound.

I get what you're saying but I think you picked a poor round for the analogy honestly. The .50 BMG was designed as an anti-material round so if it hits a person even IF the person is somehow still CONSCIOUS after getting hit with it... PRETTY sure that fucker won't be getting back up and it isn't from "knockdown" power but from pure, utter, fucking pain/shock of seeing your insides on the outside.

I can get what you're saying if it was say a .300 Win Mag, .308, or even .338 Lapua as I've heard from friends them seeing a guy get hit with those in combat and still moving/fighting until they collapse from blood loss 5 minutes later. I've just always been under the impression that .50 BMG as it was designed to TAKE OUT VEHICLES just basically disintegrates any... well... organic material it hits.

 

[rmongler]

Terminal ballistic effects depend on round *design*. A standard fmj .50 would poke a hole through and though just like any other bullet; a frangible .223 round would make a bigger mess. A few fractions of an inch difference... is not much of a difference.

Human tissue is highly elastic; anyone who starts talking about things like 'temporary cavity' or 'energy dump' is probably bullshitting you.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Terminal ballistic effects depend on round *design*. A standard fmj .50 would poke a hole through and though just like any other bullet; a frangible .223 round would make a bigger mess. A few fractions of an inch difference... is not much of a difference.

Human tissue is highly elastic; anyone who starts talking about things like 'temporary cavity' or 'energy dump' is probably bullshitting you.

But what about ligaments, tendons, and bone? Those are not highly elastic. Doesnt damage done to those parts of the body also factor in when judging "effectiveness"?