“We’re watching the ascendence of the HW GOAT right now” - DJ

[Hotora86]

When was Stipe considered HW goat? Like every fighter that looks good on a 2 win streak a few people on here said he was but yeah

Stipe began to be considered a heavyweight GOAT candidate around 2016, following his first UFC title win against Fabricio Werdum, and the argument gained significant traction during his first reign as champion due to his record-setting four consecutive title defenses. The debate solidified over the next few years, particularly after his dominant wins against Francis Ngannou and Daniel Cormier. Jon Jones has publicly stated that Stipe Miocic is the greatest HW of all time after Miocic defeated Daniel Cormier for the UFC HW title in August 2019.

 

[Karate Kid]

Good post in general, but does this not ignore the massive asterisk and context of our yellow feathered friend?

Outwith injury and Jones holding the belt hostages whilst the UFC wouldn't book the interim champ another fight, you can't really ever say he's been inactive

this post had no true conviction behind it more reflection until i realised Tom on average fights twice a year which is decent for a top contender and never said its directly his fault.

i dont actually think inactivity is bad its more the critique of the MMA fan who's weekends are built around PPVs dont get me started.

what IS going against him though is that the HW division is shockingly weak as even if or when he surmounts the top, and he is likely to do so, it will always be mentioned. y'know, the obvious.

that the division was weak, no big names and all.

circumstantial of course.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Stipe began to be considered a heavyweight GOAT candidate around 2016, following his first UFC title win against Fabricio Werdum, and the argument gained significant traction during his first reign as champion due to his record-setting four consecutive title defenses. The debate solidified over the next few years, particularly after his dominant wins against Francis Ngannou and Daniel Cormier. Jon Jones has publicly stated that Stipe Miocic is the greatest HW of all time after Miocic defeated Daniel Cormier for the UFC HW title in August 2019.

It never really convinced most people though, myself included. I feel like most of the bigger names he beat would have beaten him if it had been the version of them from 5 years earlier instead of a late 30s/early 40s and/or shopworn version.

Stipe was a very solid HW of course but I dont think he ever showed the "it" factor. He always came across as very workmanlike. A good gritty fighter with no glaring weaknesses who was peaking in the right place at the right time to catch a bunch of big names on the downslide.

 

[mkess101]

It never really convinced most people though, myself included. I feel like most of the bigger names he beat would have beaten him if it had been the version of them from 5 years earlier instead of a late 30s/early 40s and/or shopworn version.

Stipe was a very solid HW of course but I dont think he ever showed the "it" factor. He always came across as very workmanlike. A good gritty fighter with no glaring weaknesses who was peaking in the right place at the right time to catch a bunch of big names on the downslide.

I think that's at least a LITTLE unfair. I think (especially at HW) we can nitpick almost anyone's resume' in a similar way. Not identically of course but to a degree. When Stipe won the belt, Werdum was coming off a destruction of the guy everyone assumed would be the HW GOAT (of the UFC at least) when he was done (Cain). I know you said "most" and not "all", but that Werdum win is a huge one. DC...I think those wins still age pretty well.

I tend to agree in terms of Stipe's skillset though. Very good everywhere, great nowhere. Lot of grit and underrated fight IQ. His adjustment of going to the body starting in rd 3 of the second DC fight was arguably the best in-fight adjustment I can remember. It completely flipped a fight he was losing to a fight he took over. He fought a brilliant tactical fight in the first fight with Ngannou as well.

IMO Stipe has earned his place among the all time best.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

I think that's at least a LITTLE unfair. I think (especially at HW) we can nitpick almost anyone's resume' in a similar way. Not identically of course but to a degree. When Stipe won the belt, Werdum was coming off a destruction of the guy everyone assumed would be the HW GOAT (of the UFC at least) when he was done (Cain). I know you said "most" and not "all", but that Werdum win is a huge one. DC...I think those wins still age pretty well.

I think that era of HW was pretty weird. A bunch of late 00s/early 10s guys still around at the top in the mid 10s for Stipe to make his name off of. I mean technically, yeah, Werdum was on a great run when he ran into Stipe, but was he really a better fighter at 39 than he had been when he beat Fedor? same deal with Reem, he was on a pretty good run, but was 2016 Reem better than K-1 GP winning Ubereem who rag dolled Brock 5 years earlier? was DC better at 39-41 than when he won the SF GP? i'm not convinced.

It was still a better era than we have right now though.

 

[m249viking]

Stipe began to be considered a heavyweight GOAT candidate around 2016, following his first UFC title win against Fabricio Werdum, and the argument gained significant traction during his first reign as champion due to his record-setting four consecutive title defenses. The debate solidified over the next few years, particularly after his dominant wins against Francis Ngannou and Daniel Cormier. Jon Jones has publicly stated that Stipe Miocic is the greatest HW of all time after Miocic defeated Daniel Cormier for the UFC HW title in August 2019.

by a couple goobers on shertard who declare goat status constantly on whoever looks good at the moment

 

[mkess101]

I think that era of HW was pretty weird. A bunch of late 00s/early 10s guys still around at the top in the mid 10s for Stipe to make his name off of. I mean technically, yeah, Werdum was on a great run when he ran into Stipe, but was he really a better fighter at 39 than he had been when he beat Fedor? same deal with Reem, he was on a pretty good run, but was 2016 Reem better than K-1 GP winning Ubereem who rag dolled Brock 5 years earlier? was DC better at 39-41 than when he won the SF GP? i'm not convinced.

It was still a better era than we have right now though.

Right. It's hard to say. Werdum was certainly more well rounded later in his career. Trusted his Muy Thai more, didn't flop to his back begging for a ground fight. And 39 is old...but HW the drop-off is more around then as opposed to earlier with lower weight classes. Overeem was maybe not as dynamic as earlier, it was more is econoreem phase. Smarter, better defensively but maybe less dangerous.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

View attachment 1117000

When you look at Stipe's run - previously considered the "HW goat" you realize it's a bunch of old past their prime washed up geriatrics outside of Ngannou. Even DC was well up in there in age when Stipe got his W's over him. Stipe eventually became one himself when Ngannou disposed of him.


It's just the way of life at heavyweight.

I don't know if Tom can surpass Stipe's resume.

Nobody ever seriously considered Stipe the HW GOAT. I personally have him as the 4th or 5th best HW of all time, based on his resume. His resume may include a lot of guys past their prime, but it was still an impressive run and they were still good wins. The only guys I definitively rank above Stipe are Fedor, Nog, and Werdum. I would say Stipe is in the next tier, on equal footing with guys like JDS, Barnett, Cro Cop and Cain.

I personally don't think Tom can crack the Top 10. I don't think he will be looked at as a better Heavyweight than guys like Cormier, Couture, Arlovski, Overeem, Coleman, Sylvia. All those guys still have better resumes than Tom and would be favored to beat Tom in a prime vs prime battle.

 

[mkess101]

I don't know if Tom can surpass Stipe's resume.

Nobody ever seriously considered Stipe the HW GOAT. I personally have him as the 4th or 5th best HW of all time, based on his resume. His resume may include a lot of guys past their prime, but it was still an impressive run and they were still good wins. The only guys I definitively rank above Stipe are Fedor, Nog, and Werdum. I would say Stipe is in the next tier, on equal footing with guys like JDS, Barnett, Cro Cop and Cain.

I personally don't think Tom can crack the Top 10. I don't think he will be looked at as a better Heavyweight than guys like Cormier, Couture, Arlovski, Overeem, Coleman, Sylvia. All those guys still have better resumes than Tom and would be favored to beat Tom in a prime vs prime battle.

Literally none of those guys would be favored to beat the current version of Aspinall. Not one. That doesn't mean none could or would, but none would be favored.
Now, if we get more data on Aspinall showing weaknesses that we haven't seen during his UFC run? Different story. But right now, he'd absolutely be the betting favorite over every one of those guys based on what he's looked like in the UFC.

 

[Portland8242]

I don't know if Tom can surpass Stipe's resume.

Nobody ever seriously considered Stipe the HW GOAT. I personally have him as the 4th or 5th best HW of all time, based on his resume. His resume may include a lot of guys past their prime, but it was still an impressive run and they were still good wins. The only guys I definitively rank above Stipe are Fedor, Nog, and Werdum. I would say Stipe is in the next tier, on equal footing with guys like JDS, Barnett, Cro Cop and Cain.

I personally don't think Tom can crack the Top 10. I don't think he will be looked at as a better Heavyweight than guys like Cormier, Couture, Arlovski, Overeem, Coleman, Sylvia. All those guys still have better resumes than Tom and would be favored to beat Tom in a prime vs prime battle.

Pretty terrible troll, 0/10.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

I don't think he will be looked at as a better Heavyweight than guys like Cormier, Couture, Arlovski, Overeem, Coleman, Sylvia. All those guys still have better resumes than Tom and would be favored to beat Tom in a prime vs prime battle.

Not sure if you're being serious.

Picking prime DC or Reem (or Cain, JDS, Fedor, Werdum, maybe a few others like Ngannou, Stipe etc) to beat Tom is very reasonable, but Randy? Coleman? Big Tim? thats taking it a little too far.

 

[SuperAlly]

Nobody ever seriously considered Stipe the HW GOAT.

I mean, this is 100% incorrect. But ok

 

[SuperAlly]

But would he beat pre injury Cain....

Like a ginger haired step child

 

[Just Creed]

Like a ginger haired step child

I guess we'll never find out...

 

[TheGreenMachine]

Conor is universally "excepted" as GOAT?

I thought the conversation was about GOAT of the entire sport, not of their own division, which is an entirely different conversation

For this point I'm talking in general as being GOATs, but not THE GOAT, and that weight class doesn't matter because half of the people even consider GOATs are lighter weight fighters.

 

[TheGreenMachine]

Except...some people DO absolutely have DJ in the GOAT discussions. If you have that preconceived bias in your head already, then sure it won't convince YOU. But for others it can. There's subjectivity involved.

Look at boxing. Mike Tyson is looked at as one of the HW all time best despite never beating another all time best HW in their prime. Because of how dominant he was during his rise and HOW he beat people.

I never said DJ wasn't in the GOAT discussion. But a lot of people, including me, can't have him as THE best fighter of all time based off who he beat. That's why GSP, Anderson, and Jones frequently outrank him on those lists. If Islam beats JDM and Topuria defends the LW title like 1 or 2 more times, I guarantee you people would probably hold them in higher GOAT rankings than DJ too. This was the same issue Ronda had with her weak, up and coming female BW division. Massive win streak, but most people can't even remember half the names she beat.

With Aspinall, I know we are talking strictly about him as a HW GOAT if he beats the record. But the same logic applies. If he beats the HW defense record by beating Gane, Volkov, Almeida, and Cortes-Acosta (current top 5), is anyone really going to consider that a better record than the record of previous HW fighters like Ngannou, Stipe, Werdum, JDS, Fedor, Overeem, or Cormier? Some of those fighters never won UFC HW gold, but they still have far better win streaks and records than the likes of Gane, Volkov, Almeida, and Cortes-Acosta. I think Cain has a pretty weak record at HW, and I'd still say his record is better than those list of names.

HW is in a pretty weak state right now. The past two title winners (Jones and Ngannou) never even fought each other, and Aspinall will likely never face either of them. So he's in the position of being a paper champion's paper champion just by way of title lineage. Its not his fault, but beating the likes of Gane, Volkov, Almedia, and Cortes-Acosta definitely isn't going to help him overcome that stigma.

 

[mkess101]

I never said DJ wasn't in the GOAT discussion. But a lot of people, including me, can't have him as THE best fighter of all time based off who he beat. That's why GSP, Anderson, and Jones frequently outrank him on those lists. If Islam beats JDM and Topuria defends the LW title like 1 or 2 more times, I guarantee you people would probably hold them in higher GOAT rankings than DJ too. This was the same issue Ronda had with her weak, up and coming female BW division. Massive win streak, but most people can't even remember half the names she beat.

With Aspinall, I know we are talking strictly about him as a HW GOAT if he beats the record. But the same logic applies. If he beats the HW defense record by beating Gane, Volkov, Almeida, and Cortes-Acosta (current top 5), is anyone really going to consider that a better record than the record of previous HW fighters like Ngannou, Stipe, Werdum, JDS, Fedor, Overeem, or Cormier? Some of those fighters never won UFC HW gold, but they still have far better win streaks and records than the likes of Gane, Volkov, Almeida, and Cortes-Acosta. I think Cain has a pretty weak record at HW, and I'd still say his record is better than those list of names.

HW is in a pretty weak state right now. The past two title winners (Jones and Ngannou) never even fought each other, and Aspinall will likely never face either of them. So he's in the position of being a paper champion's paper champion just by way of title lineage. Its not his fault, but beating the likes of Gane, Volkov, Almedia, and Cortes-Acosta definitely isn't going to help him overcome that stigma.

Being in the discussion itself automatically means that SOME will at the least CONSIDER him for the top spot. Which is basically all anyone could ever expect anyway because there's pretty much never a consensus. And again, this isn't even taking into account he's only 32. The landscape can change a lot in 2-4 years. We may (or may not) think differently of the HW division when he's 35. Maybe 2-3 killers arrive and he beats them all. Not super likely but also far from impossible. Maybe he loses multiple fights and this whole discussion ends up pointless.

Trying to write someone's legacy (or even put parameters on it)so early makes very little sense.

 

[method115]

People used to say the same about Cain and then Werdum destroyed him.

 

[Benoitthegr8]

I wish people would keep the OAT talk for the people who have firmly established themselves as such, it’s needlessly thrown around in MMA, having the potential to do something…? let’s talk about gym-GOAT Mike Pyle

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Not sure if you're being serious.

Picking prime DC or Reem (or Cain, JDS, Fedor, Werdum, maybe a few others like Ngannou, Stipe etc) to beat Tom is very reasonable, but Randy? Coleman? Big Tim? thats taking it a little too far.

Let's not forget that Randy has taken down:

Randleman
Vitor
Ricco
Barnett
Nogueira
Sylvia
Liddell
Ortiz
Smith
Rizzo
Van Arsdale
Gonzaga


After all those takedowns against all those killers, I believe he could take Tom down and keep him down. Could Tom win? Yes, it could go either way. But Randy has fought and beaten more killers than Tom so as it stands, Randy is more proven and higher on all time rankings. Maybe if Tom gets a few more quality wins he could surpass Randy.