Why so few elbows in Kyokushin?

[MarcoW]

I like to watch lots of kyokushin tournaments online and one day hope to compete in one for my entertainment.
One thing I notice however is that rarely do I see elbows thrown even though elbows to the body are allowed and the fighting is almost always at close range. Why is this?

goju is very close range fighting and a lot of our close range attacks are elbows to the body or head to break distance before moving back in again and repeating. would this be ineffective in kyokushin?

 

[MarxP]

It may be because most karatekas in tournaments wouldn't be affected by an elbow to the body due to their high level of body conditioning and toughness.

 

[shinkyoku]

Elbows are mainly effective to the head, and in knockdown (kyokushin rules) karate they are only allowed below the neck.

You see elbows to the upper arm/biceps to destroy a guard. You sometimes see downward stabbing elbows aimed at the collarbone, often to create space when dragged into a clinch (a risky tactic as it is easy to hit the face by mistake, resulting in a foul).
But elbows to the body is simply not effective enough most of the time to make them common. They are not unknown, just very rare.

And ofcourse since they are not really KO techniques when not targeting the head (targeting the arm it is more of a attrition technique to open the head up for a kick later on), they do not show up in many highlights.
In this fight with Donatas Imbras (Shin-kyokushin fighter from Lithuania) you see him use a basic elbow (chudan hiji ate) to the biceps at 0.33. but ofcourse that is not the spectacular part of the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej5psB_O0eQ
In this clip also with Donatas Imbras you see him use a downward stabbing elbow (oroshi hiji ate) to the collarbone to create space (at 1.00), but once again, that is not the showy part of the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_mmxF3PNA8
Its actually one of his signature techniques.

 

[Harukaze]

When I fight knockdown rules, I like to sometimes throw elbows to the collarbone, but like shinkyoku said, it's risky as it's easy to smash someone's face in with it. An elbow anywhere else under knockdown rules is either impractical or ineffective, at least from my experience.

 

[Azam]

Like it's already been mentioned elbows aren't exactly as efficient or effective under the knockdown ruleset for a variety of reasons; placement, setup & range being the problem here.

The only way I usually witness an elbow being thrown in knockdown competition is at the clavicle (usually punches & elbows in that region because it is supposedly an easy bone to break).

Setup, range & placement are the biggest problems with throwing elbows:

1. Placement - being that elbows are much more effective to the head/jaw than they are anywhere else on the body.

2. Range - they are ideal for close range definitely but they open up your guard & in knockdown karate the last thing you want to do from that range is in anyway open your guard - this is probably the main reason it isn't really thrown - since you expose much of the striking area that knockdown karateka will usually exploit (floating rib, liver, solar plexus).

3. Setups - tend to be a bit difficult because most setups will leave you exposed in knockdown to bodyshots among a host of other things in knockdown.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

If somebody tried to elbow my collerbone in an ammy situation I'd be fucking fuming. Do people not get bones snapped from that?

 

[My little Tony]

If somebody tried to elbow my collerbone in an ammy situation I'd be fucking fuming. Do people not get bones snapped from that?

This. I'd rather take one in the face.

 

[Azam]

If somebody tried to elbow my collerbone in an ammy situation I'd be fucking fuming. Do people not get bones snapped from that?

Well that's the reason it's a legit target as far as knockdown is concerned - apparently the clavicle is an easy bone to break provided you put the right amount of force or repetitive force into it or so I've heard.

That's why in knockdown karate training (sparring/kumite only) in general every school/dojo will teach you to aim at the clavicle usually with a seiken (fist/knuckles) - since it makes a good target since the clavicle can be broken. As far as elbows are concerned no many dojos as far as I know don't teach their students to do it in competition (although it is a legit application of it in kyokushin) - but you see the rare instances of someone doing it in a knockdown competition with a 12-6 elbow - tbh it's a douchey thing to do - fist not so much because you're unlikely to break bone - using a pointy elbow though is a different matter entirely.

Does it happen often in knockdown karate - no, it's actually quite rare for it to happen since no-one will focus on just punching the clavicle, however I have seen rare instances on footage of someone having it broken - not particularly pleasant.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Yeah man, elbow to the face I'm in work Monday morning any the fellas take the piss, break my collerbone and the mortgage doesn't get paid!
Kind of a gentleman agreement between fighters then. I'd still go apeshit if they tried it though.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Azam/Shinkyokushin - is a punch/fist the only method used for striking the clavicle in kyokushin besides using the elbow? I have had a guy who did TKD/HKD and Goju-ryu instruct on a sturdy hammer fist and knife edge to the clavicle besides elbow and punch.

Just curious on your opinion of other applications that can be used to injure the collar bone.

 

[Billy no mates]

Just curious on your opinion of other applications that can be used to injure the collar bone.

A good Axe kick (Oroshi kakato geri) will do it i saw an outside stylist(a Kung Fu guy i seem to recall) suffer a brocken clavicle from one a few years ago .

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

A good Axe kick (Oroshi kakato geri) will do it i saw an outside stylist(a Kung Fu guy i seem to recall) suffer a brocken clavicle from one a few years ago .

Yeah I was taught that in tkd and hkd.

 

[shinkyoku]

Azam/Shinkyokushin - is a punch/fist the only method used for striking the clavicle in kyokushin besides using the elbow? I have had a guy who did TKD/HKD and Goju-ryu instruct on a sturdy hammer fist and knife edge to the clavicle besides elbow and punch.

hammer fist and knife hand are theoretically possible, I guess. But I have never seen them done in fighting. If I had to guess why I would say that they have trouble getting through a guard, and opens up the striking side to body kicks&knees too much. same as the descending elbow but without the power to knock through the guard.
IMO the place for downward knifehands and hammer fist are in MMA G&P, not in standup.

 

[Azam]

^^

I think they've already been mentioned usually shuto, hammerfist or elbow.

I haven't seen them much either in kumite although I disagree with shin - the reason I don't think they are used is because most people prefer to use tried & tested techniques, rather than test techniques that many don't really bother using & using techniques like that - most find it awkward to use in pratical situations if that makes sense - for example why shuto someone when you can punch them (i.e. feels more natural to punch than to use a knifehand).

As for shuto (knifehand) - it is purposely built in a way that makes it ideal for going through a guard or even a great counter against a punch (through a punch) - in theory. Anything that has a slight downward/swinging trajectory will always work well in cutting through guards or a technique - take the axe kick pratically impossible to block with a guard - miles easier to just move out the way of the linear kick.

For example to illustrate what I mean in theory - if you throw a straight punch (gyaku tsuki) & I throw a shuto at your neck or temple - at the same time - your trajectory is more or less straight (because it's a straight punch) whereas my trajectory is circular/downward - chances when they connect which they will - my shuto will cut through your straight punch (because of the trajectory of the technique).


It's no coincidence in Karate that throwing shuto (shuto uchi - knifehand) at the temple or neck has the exact same trajectory or mechanics as that of soto-uke (outside to inside block) used to defend straight punches ---- any karateka who actually thinks about what he is doing will realise that these two techniques have similar mechanics even though one is a form of attack the other defence - I don't personally think it's a coincidence lol - anyway I digress.

 

[SanShou01]

Interesting that elbows have only been recently allowed in our State for maybe 2 years now for Muay Thai. But elbows to the body only for amateur MT. Pro MT, then it's full elbows to the head.

While elbows to the head have been legal in MMA since ever and even in amateur fights. Getting grounded and elbowed is much worse than while standing as there's not much head movement to dodge nor take some heat off....even if 12-6 elbows aren't allowed. It certainly hurts but a fighter can take quite a few before going down.

 

[Harukaze]

^^

I think they've already been mentioned usually shuto, hammerfist or elbow.

I haven't seen them much either in kumite although I disagree with shin - the reason I don't think they are used is because most people prefer to use tried & tested techniques, rather than test techniques that many don't really bother using & using techniques like that - most find it awkward to use in pratical situations if that makes sense - for example why shuto someone when you can punch them (i.e. feels more natural to punch than to use a knifehand).

As for shuto (knifehand) - it is purposely built in a way that makes it ideal for going through a guard or even a great counter against a punch (through a punch) - in theory. Anything that has a slight downward/swinging trajectory will always work well in cutting through guards or a technique - take the axe kick pratically impossible to block with a guard - miles easier to just move out the way of the linear kick.

For example to illustrate what I mean in theory - if you throw a straight punch (gyaku tsuki) & I throw a shuto at your neck or temple - at the same time - your trajectory is more or less straight (because it's a straight punch) whereas my trajectory is circular/downward - chances when they connect which they will - my shuto will cut through your straight punch (because of the trajectory of the technique).


It's no coincidence in Karate that throwing shuto (shuto uchi - knifehand) at the temple or neck has the exact same trajectory or mechanics as that of soto-uke (outside to inside block) used to defend straight punches ---- any karateka who actually thinks about what he is doing will realise that these two techniques have similar mechanics even though one is a form of attack the other defence - I don't personally think it's a coincidence lol - anyway I digress.

All this talk about shuto reminds me of Bobby Lowe Shihan's fondness for them when teaching goshin-jutsu techniques. Some of the folks from his dojo in Kanewai would use shuto pretty extensively even when doing kumite; it was an interesting, anachronistic style that might die out with Lowe Shihan's generation.

 

[SAMURAI SPIRIT]

I have been punched straight in the clavicle bare knuckle during a Kyokushin tournament. There was no fracture but the swelling was nasty and the bruise kept getting bigger and bigger. There is no way an elbow could do this kind of damage.

I find kyokushin to be a whole lot more "painful" than gloved competitions of any sort.

 

[My little Tony]

There is no way an elbow could do this kind of damage.

Why not?

 

[Harukaze]

I have been punched straight in the clavicle bare knuckle during a Kyokushin tournament. There was no fracture but the swelling was nasty and the bruise kept getting bigger and bigger. There is no way an elbow could do this kind of damage.

I find kyokushin to be a whole lot more "painful" than gloved competitions of any sort.

Depends on the type of elbow strike. A standard MT-style horizontal elbow aimed at a downward, diagonal angle to the elbow is nasty stuff (it's just risky as it's easy to smash the opponent's face full-on by accident). I've been on both ends of it, so I speak from experience haha!

 

[Charlitos1988]

Well that's the reason it's a legit target as far as knockdown is concerned - apparently the clavicle is an easy bone to break provided you put the right amount of force or repetitive force into it or so I've heard.

That's why in knockdown karate training (sparring/kumite only) in general every school/dojo will teach you to aim at the clavicle usually with a seiken (fist/knuckles) - since it makes a good target since the clavicle can be broken. As far as elbows are concerned no many dojos as far as I know don't teach their students to do it in competition (although it is a legit application of it in kyokushin) - but you see the rare instances of someone doing it in a knockdown competition with a 12-6 elbow - tbh it's a douchey thing to do - fist not so much because you're unlikely to break bone - using a pointy elbow though is a different matter entirely.

Does it happen often in knockdown karate - no, it's actually quite rare for it to happen since no-one will focus on just punching the clavicle, however I have seen rare instances on footage of someone having it broken - not particularly pleasant.

But what do you think about Open hand shuto to the collarbone?

I mean its a classic Karate attack and I think is even easier to strike with shuto to collarbone instead of elbows....

Shutos and other forms of karate hands are inexistant in Kyokushin competition altough Karate itself has a wide variety of forms of hands.

That's too bad.