Why no sidekicks in mma

[thirteen]

There are hundreds of techniques from martial arts that are not used/seen
in MMA.
Does this mean we should stop using/training them?
Um...no.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

There are hundreds of techniques from martial arts that are not used/seen
in MMA.
Does this mean we should stop using/training them?
Um...no.

qft

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

conqueror of muay thai? since when has he ever fought in muay thai rules? and who has he fought in muay thai rules? matter a fact.... what muay thai fighter did he fight under san shou rules?

look it up he fought thai boxers.

Oh yes i remember the excuses that rolled in for him beating the mt guys .

First it was the fact that he was too big. Apparently all the good thai's were in the lighter weight classes so he didn't fight adequate competiton at his weight. Then it was the fact that the elbows were padded. I suppose MT is rendered useless the minute you put elbow pads on (rolls eyes)

oh and did you know san shou was created withing the last 60-70 years cause muay thai fighters went to china a kicked the shit out of those praying mantis, tiger palm guys? its documented. san shou was created to counter muay thai.

Tiger palm? Please don't start bashing kung fu when you cant even get the names of the styles right :icon_chee

As far as why san shou was created...

http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-sanshou.htm

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Legs Mahoney, thank you very much for informing folks on Sanshou and Kungfu. Chino needs to get his head outta his ass and stop throwing insults.

Side kicks are definitely legit, and they could knock the wind right out of someone, as long as its done at the right time; just like with any strike: train realistically, often and bam, you could add the sidekick as a great and versatile weapon to your toolset.

By the way, another thing people don't realize is that 99% of Sanshou techniques are found in Northern Long Fist and 7 Star Mantis, as well as Shuaijiao (which is the grandfather of all Chinese martial arts. Bottom line, with any technique, practice often, practice hard...

 

[chino0503]

i know who he is. let me ask u that simple question one more time. when has he fought MUAY THAI and what fighters has he fought? its like me beating derek jeter in a foot race and claiming myself as "conquerer of baseball!"

and i'll say t again. san shou was created within the last 60-70 years ago cause thai fighters went to china and kicked the shit out of tye kung fu masters. its well documented.

look at the rules. no elbows, no knees in the clinch which are a muay thai fighters most dangerous weapons. double leg takedowns are legal which really nullifies a muay thai fighters clinch. i said it once and i'll say it again. san shou was created to off set muay thai.

one things for sure... you will never see a chinese fighter go to thailand and fight under thai rules... hell they dont fight outside the country, period.

 

[chino0503]

i find it funny you dont even know tye history of the sport you seem to love so much.

if you want. i can go to A KUNG FU website and show you the documented fights between kung fu master (before san shou was created) and thai fighters, with pictures. they all lost by first round ko.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

i know who he is. let me ask u that simple question one more time. when has he fought MUAY THAI and what fighters has he fought? its like me beating derek jeter in a foot race and claiming myself as "conquerer of baseball!"

They were unified rules. Elbows and knees were allowed the clinch time was just shortened which wouldn't benefit either fighter as sanda has a clinch as well.


Again get off your ass and go look. He beat Thai boxers.I'm suprised you weren't even aware of "the conqueror of MT" name he was given.

and i'll say t again. san shou was created within the last 60-70 years ago cause thai fighters went to china and kicked the shit out of tye kung fu masters. its well documented.

Repeating yourself isn't going to make you look right no matter how many times you do it.I gave the history of san da and all you've stated is something you've yet to show evidence of. Unless of course that one incident where the chinese kung fu stylists lost to the mt fighters decades ago is your "proof."

look at the rules. no elbows, no knees in the clinch which are a muay thai fighters most dangerous weapons.double leg takedowns are legal which really nullifies a muay thai fighters clinch.

Again not all of the fights were like that and if you're going to cry no fair because the rules didnt suit MT perfectly than dont bitch about the san da double leg being used.

i said it once and i'll say it again. san shou was created to off set muay thai.

Wow again? Why not just babble on about that one clueless jkd guy some more? I love how so many of you guys on here always mention the silly noob at your gym who doesn't know what he is doing in order to make it look like you train "FO REALZ"

one things for sure... you will never see a chinese fighter go to thailand and fight under thai rules... hell they dont fight outside the country, period.

The rules should be unified in order to make them fair and not cater to one style.and please don't try to claim the Thai judges and refs aren't just as biased as the Chinese are.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

i find it funny you dont even know tye history of the sport you seem to love so much.

if you want. i can go to A KUNG FU website and show you the documented fights between kung fu master (before san shou was created) and thai fighters, with pictures. they all lost by first round ko.

Yes that was one incident quite some time ago that has fallen into the abyss of martial history. I find it laughable you think the chinese government went through all the effort to construct sanda off of that when my link clearly stated why it came about.


But of course as the internet has proven random posters always know more even when facts are presented to them:icon_cry2:icon_lol:

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Lol, Chino, stop getting your panties in a bunch. Kungfu is not better than Muay Thai and Muay Thai is not better than Gongfu, it's the individual that makes it come alive, and they actually have more similarities and crossover than people think. I respect your passion on the subject. But you're barely scratching the surface of the history of modern Sanshou. You made no mention of the Communist Revolution, the Cultural Revolution; you're negating the fact that regardless of Thai vs China fights, Sanshou (aka Sanda) is 99% Traditional Kungfu, just with unified rules and gloves. I know what "documented fights" you're talking about. The term "kungfu master" gets thrown around WAY too much. I could make a massive article on this subject, but I'll try to be brief.

What you don't realize is that Thai fighters never beat the shit out of all the "top fighters" in China. Not even close. They did beat some of the Hong Kong amateur teams, they were more or less decent, but not the best gongfu fighters in China. China is a MASSIVE nation, with many different regions and competitions.

Yet Tat Mau Wong, was a Choy Lee Fut fighter (Southern Gongfu style), and beat the fuck outta many Thai boxers. China had bigger reasons to develop Sanshou than just "the Thai boxer" threat.

What you're forgetting is when the Communist takeover happened in Mainland China, Chinese martial arts as a whole suffered for civilians. They became illegal and many old school kungfu fighters were imprisoned or killed (including some Shaolin Monks, who had their temple in a decrepit state for decades). Others fleed to neighboring countries and spread out all over (Japan, US, Taiwan, Phillipines, Russia). ONLY military and government officials were legally allowed to train old school no-rules kungfu. This was part of Chairman Mao's plan of "comrades should not fight comrades".

HOWEVER, to counter this, and still promote a national sport, the Communist government sought out many high level fighters/instructors that had not fled, and and joined together to develop a new Combat Sport that could incorporate many practical Gongfu techniques (kicking, striking, wrestling) yet compete in a relatively safe manner by making the more "damaging" or "dirty" techniques illegal (eye gouging, groin shots, fish-hooking, finger jabs to throat). They added boxing gloves and a slightly elevated arena called "Lei Tai" to fight in. This became the modern day Sport Sanshou, (the word Sanshou or Sanda means "free fight") which was a great way to promote full contact gongfu under a unified rules environment.

The Communist government, also developed Modern (contemporary) Wushu, as the premiere "performance" aspect of gongfu (the "yin" to Sanda's "Yang", so to speak). This is the sport that has all the high flying leaps and flips in their forms. (Jet Li was on the National Wushu team in the '70s).

Throughout all this, the Chinese Special Forces still practiced (even to this day) the full Combat Sanshou, which emphasized the practice of all gongfu methods (the dirty moves, the joint locks, and such) in a no-rules method.

Sanda (Sanshou) gets many of its techniques from Northern Long Fist (round kick, straight kick, side kick, hook kick) and Northern Mantis & Shuaijiao (the wrestling, hip tosses, leg sweeps). Pat Barry, Cung Le, James Terry, Josh Thompson, Anthony Johnson all have practiced Sanshou. People also tend to forget that Muay Thai is a sport version of Muay Boran and Krabi Krabong.

And on an interesting side note, all the awesome throws that Jonny Bones Jones uses in his fights, are nearly identical to 7 star Mantis and Shuaijiao. I doubt he ever trained officially in that stuff, but like I said before, many arts have crossover.

Hope that was informative. Peace.

 

[xen]

Takes too long to "load up" and leaves you in a very dangerous position if it's caught or if you miss

Agreed. This is more the result of MMA fighters often not being able to kick quickly, and more importantly being able to reset their position as fast. It does leave you in a disadvantageous position if executed too slowly, and your opponent will catch your leg or take you to the ground through other means. If you can't do it well, it becomes a large liability.

 

[devante]

Chino...sorry for the bluntness but you don't know what you're talking about on this one. I can pull of side kicks almost at will when I spar, and I've also broken a few heavy bags with them.

Are there inherent risks with the kick? Sure. Just because YOU can't pull it off, doesn't mean it's not a good kick. This response isn't meant to be the start of an immature shit-talking bout that I know you're fully capable and wanting of, but you need to stick to talking about things you have a working knowledge of.

If you ever care to test out the validity of what I'm saying, come and train with me one day. I always enjoy the experience of training with new partners.

have to cosign this, van has repeatedly pulled that kick off from various positions, to intercept various attacks and in various situations (opp trying to press, trying to potshot, trying to move in and out). I have been the recipient of a few of them, lucky for me he wasn't really putting alot on them; but the fact is he threw them and landed them whenever he wanted. The dude is very versatile w/the kicks, and im speaking based on my first hand experience w/the dude.

 

[chino0503]

YouTube - Sweet Chin Music Tribute! - 'HIGH QUALITY'

 

[barnowl]

i find it funny you dont even know tye history of the sport you seem to love so much.

if you want. i can go to A KUNG FU website and show you the documented fights between kung fu master (before san shou was created) and thai fighters, with pictures. they all lost by first round ko.

First the Chinese went to Thailand not the other way around, and it was not all first round Ko's. Yes the Mt Thai's guy won all but one that I know about and that one went the distance to be declared a draw. It was a Tiger stylist that went the distance. I don't believe any Mantis stylist actually took part in the fights, could be wrong though.

The most recent Chinese vs Thai matchup end in the Chinese favor 3 to 2. It is somewhere in this forum.

San Sho actually predates these events and was part, would you believe it, of Tai Chi Chaun among others. Sanda is the correct name for what was developed after the early 1900 defeats. San Sho really just refers to live fire sparing, kind os the same as the japanese term Kumite.

 

[barnowl]

Lol, Chino, stop getting your panties in a bunch. Kungfu is not better than Muay Thai and Muay Thai is not better than Gongfu, it's the individual that makes it come alive, and they actually have more similarities and crossover than people think. I respect your passion on the subject. But you're barely scratching the surface of the history of modern Sanshou. You made no mention of the Communist Revolution, the Cultural Revolution; you're negating the fact that regardless of Thai vs China fights, Sanshou (aka Sanda) is 99% Traditional Kungfu, just with unified rules and gloves. I know what "documented fights" you're talking about. The term "kungfu master" gets thrown around WAY too much. I could make a massive article on this subject, but I'll try to be brief.

What you don't realize is that Thai fighters never beat the shit out of all the "top fighters" in China. Not even close. They did beat some of the Hong Kong amateur teams, they were more or less decent, but not the best gongfu fighters in China. China is a MASSIVE nation, with many different regions and competitions.

Yet Tat Mau Wong, was a Choy Lee Fut fighter (Southern Gongfu style), and beat the fuck outta many Thai boxers. China had bigger reasons to develop Sanshou than just "the Thai boxer" threat.

What you're forgetting is when the Communist takeover happened in Mainland China, Chinese martial arts as a whole suffered for civilians. They became illegal and many old school kungfu fighters were imprisoned or killed (including some Shaolin Monks, who had their temple in a decrepit state for decades). Others fleed to neighboring countries and spread out all over (Japan, US, Taiwan, Phillipines, Russia). ONLY military and government officials were legally allowed to train old school no-rules kungfu. This was part of Chairman Mao's plan of "comrades should not fight comrades".

HOWEVER, to counter this, and still promote a national sport, the Communist government sought out many high level fighters/instructors that had not fled, and and joined together to develop a new Combat Sport that could incorporate many practical Gongfu techniques (kicking, striking, wrestling) yet compete in a relatively safe manner by making the more "damaging" or "dirty" techniques illegal (eye gouging, groin shots, fish-hooking, finger jabs to throat). They added boxing gloves and a slightly elevated arena called "Lei Tai" to fight in. This became the modern day Sport Sanshou, (the word Sanshou or Sanda means "free fight") which was a great way to promote full contact gongfu under a unified rules environment.

The Communist government, also developed Modern (contemporary) Wushu, as the premiere "performance" aspect of gongfu (the "yin" to Sanda's "Yang", so to speak). This is the sport that has all the high flying leaps and flips in their forms. (Jet Li was on the National Wushu team in the '70s).

Throughout all this, the Chinese Special Forces still practiced (even to this day) the full Combat Sanshou, which emphasized the practice of all gongfu methods (the dirty moves, the joint locks, and such) in a no-rules method.

Sanda (Sanshou) gets many of its techniques from Northern Long Fist (round kick, straight kick, side kick, hook kick) and Northern Mantis & Shuaijiao (the wrestling, hip tosses, leg sweeps). Pat Barry, Cung Le, James Terry, Josh Thompson, Anthony Johnson all have practiced Sanshou. People also tend to forget that Muay Thai is a sport version of Muay Boran and Krabi Krabong.

And on an interesting side note, all the awesome throws that Jonny Bones Jones uses in his fights, are nearly identical to 7 star Mantis and Shuaijiao. I doubt he ever trained officially in that stuff, but like I said before, many arts have crossover.

Hope that was informative. Peace.

Damn wish I had read this before I responded. We differ a bit on exactly the orgin point of San Shou and the Sanda/Sanshou name distinction. Other than that very nice right up. I could not remember Tat Mau Wong name, though I believe he went Thai hunting seperatly form the events that Chino is pointing to.

How exactly did we get to this from side kicks though?

 

[chino0503]

First the Chinese went to Thailand not the other way around, and it was not all first round Ko's. Yes the Mt Thai's guy won all but one that I know about and that one went the distance to be declared a draw. It was a Tiger stylist that went the distance. I don't believe any Mantis stylist actually took part in the fights, could be wrong though.

The most recent Chinese vs Thai matchup end in the Chinese favor 3 to 2. It is somewhere in this forum.

San Sho actually predates these events and was part, would you believe it, of Tai Chi Chaun among others. Sanda is the correct name for what was developed after the early 1900 defeats. San Sho really just refers to live fire sparing, kind os the same as the japanese term Kumite.

thank you. somenoe that knows what they're talking about

yeah they won 3-2 with chinese judges, in a chinese stadium, with chinese audience and with the chinese bias. fucking cheesy double legs are scored like they're knock downs. bullshit. no knees to the head? wtf. no time in the clinch. elbow pads.....WOW

i bet all you sanda nut riders never even heard of this. you just believe whatever the chinese government comes up with. these are actually articles with actual pictures. kung fu fights getting their heads kicked to the 20th row.

THEN REALIZING THEIR MARTIAL ARTS IS BULLSHIT and made sanda to keep up with the thai fighters.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

thank you. somenoe that knows what they're talking about

yeah they won 3-2 with chinese judges, in a chinese stadium, with chinese audience and with the chinese bias. fucking cheesy double legs are scored like they're knock downs. bullshit. no knees to the head? wtf. no time in the clinch. elbow pads.....WOW

i bet all you sanda nut riders never even heard of this. you just believe whatever the chinese government comes up with. these are actually articles with actual pictures. kung fu fights getting their heads kicked to the 20th row.

THEN REALIZING THEIR MARTIAL ARTS IS BULLSHIT and made sanda to keep up with the thai fighters.

lol dude the thais lost get over it or get your ass in the gym and avenge their losses since it apparently hurts you so badly to admit it

 

[barnowl]

thank you. somenoe that knows what they're talking about

yeah they won 3-2 with chinese judges, in a chinese stadium, with chinese audience and with the chinese bias. fucking cheesy double legs are scored like they're knock downs. bullshit. no knees to the head? wtf. no time in the clinch. elbow pads.....WOW

i bet all you sanda nut riders never even heard of this. you just believe whatever the chinese government comes up with. these are actually articles with actual pictures. kung fu fights getting their heads kicked to the 20th row.

THEN REALIZING THEIR MARTIAL ARTS IS BULLSHIT and made sanda to keep up with the thai fighters.

And the first match up was Thai judges, thai rules and thai baisis. that makes Them 1 and 1. Maybe next time it should be held in the U.S.A under Amercian rules with American judges. That should even the field up a lot.

The only sure thing about the argument between Kung-fu and MT that everyone will agree on is that it will always be easier to find good MT fighters than Kung-fu Fighters. They do exist for example, a personal favorite, Don "The Dragon" Wilson is a White Dragon Kung-fu Sifu and 11 World Titles in Kickboxing. He start Kickboxing to prove Kung-fu worked, I would say he did a good job. His record is 72-5-2 (48 knockouts) with 3 no-contests with only one of the loses by KO, with wins over James Warring, Dennis Alexio, and Maurice Smith.

 

[barnowl]

Alright so one of his loses is to a thai boxer, but the boxer in question was Samart Parsanmit and he only lost by a decision in Bangkok. Guess that means gave as good as he got.

 

[chino0503]

And the first match up was Thai judges, thai rules and thai baisis. that makes Them 1 and 1. Maybe next time it should be held in the U.S.A under Amercian rules with American judges. That should even the field up a lot.

The only sure thing about the argument between Kung-fu and MT that everyone will agree on is that it will always be easier to find good MT fighters than Kung-fu Fighters. They do exist for example, a personal favorite, Don "The Dragon" Wilson is a White Dragon Kung-fu Sifu and 11 World Titles in Kickboxing. He start Kickboxing to prove Kung-fu worked, I would say he did a good job. His record is 72-5-2 (48 knockouts) with 3 no-contests with only one of the loses by KO, with wins over James Warring, Dennis Alexio, and Maurice Smith.

didnt he go to thailand and get his ass handed to him? and benny the jet also. refresh my memory.

 

[chino0503]

lol dude the thais lost get over it or get your ass in the gym and avenge their losses since it apparently hurts you so badly to admit it

me hurt?? no im just pointing out the fact that sanda only exist today because the chinese discovered muay thai. can you admit that?