Why do so many Americans value the Confederacy?

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Please, don't associate those idiots with the Confederacy. Two different ideologies. I'm sure those idiots would not be willing to die for their cause.

1. I'm not sure about that. Just because someone has a wicked ideology doesn't mean they are a coward. I don't say this to ennoble them, but so they are not underestimated.

2. And they are the ones associating themselves with the Confederate, not me. And given the explicitly white supremacy on which the Confederacy was founded, perhaps they have a case for that.

 

[DannyNL]

Oh, little princess got offended. Cry a little harder Canada boy. You came in insulting fuck face, and you just did it again. Go read about Canadian slaves before we talk about American slaves.

That's right, same old shit from a numbskull: accuse people of being offended because they disagree with you and classic misdirection. We're talking about the Confederacy, not Canada, you Oklahoma hick.

But I guess you're butt hurt because they're tearing your Confederate stuff down all over you country! lol I should have been a bit more understanding.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm Canadian and not an expert on American history, but I'm just wondering why so many Americans feel so strongly about confederate stuff? Why such a strong obsession with a side that got their ass kicked in a war (I'd love to ask the same question to Neo Nazis).

How do they justify that Confederate stuff is not a symbol of slavery?

I have a Southern rebel sort of friend and he told me part of it is that the South had great generals and they're still proud of that despite the moral ambiguity of these figures. Also its tradition. These symbols get passed down from generation to generation and overtime they can become dissociated from their original meaning and acquire new ones. Obvious and extreme example is the swastika which was a Hindu symbol whose original meaning has been completely overshadowed by its association with Nazis.

 

[DannyNL]

These symbols get passed down from generation to generation and overtime they can become dissociated from their original meaning and acquire new ones.

That makes a lot of sense. It's a shame people can't talk about these kinds of things rationally without emotion. Instead it inevitably goes to "FUCK YOU FUCKIN RACIST!" "FUCK YOU YOU'RE TRYING TO TAKE MY HISTORY YOU FUCKING LIB" yadda yadda

 

[TrueBias]

I might agree if we are talking about isolated individuals, but what about when a hundred racists get together down on Main Street carrying torches?

Were they burning stuff?

 

[Makani]

The majority wish slavery never happened in the first place, while the left keeps slavery going.

I'd say the right is responsible for the for-profit prison industry, which is the closest to slavery I can see in modern America, though old Bill did his part to help that along too.

Side note, did the Allison Brie nude leaks change your life?

 

[Cake4Breakfast]

The best explanation I have heard that deals with the complexity of the issue:

 

[lilelvis]

No, I make statements about the South that are close to accurate as I can make them. That they feel like "the south is still racist" isn't because I'm shading the statements that way, it's probably because when they're laid out neutrally, they still have the element to them.

You can have your personal experience but it's not necessarily reflective of the totality of events. There are plenty of people from the south who have a different opinion than you do on what the South is like.

Blacks and white in the South share a common history and culture that's true. But why do so many people stop short of truthfully exploring that common history. Which basically said that if you look a certain way, you have to do certain things or the people who look different from you will punish you either economically or physically. And what type of culture will that common history create? I mean that's just one part of it but when you're talking about the South, it's a pretty big part of it.

There was another thread where someone said that their grandfather from 1910's Arkansas never had any issues with black people and someone replied of course not, under the rules of 1910 Arkansas any black person who created issues with white people was probably in for a world of trouble. Black people had to be careful to not do anything that would be misconstrued as an issue. So the 1910's white guy, everyone got along. To the 1910's black guy, it was a daily exercise in self-preservation.

Now, I'm not mentioning that to say it's the current norm. I'm mentioning to show how a perception of things changes depending on what role you're being asked to perform. And perhaps enough people don't think about all of the roles everyone else must perform so that their life seem the way that it is.

Like a stay at home spouse who never realizes how much work goes into the other spouse's ability to pay the mortgage, they just like having a roof over their head.

Not everyone is the unobservant idiot you portray them to be.
You are obliviating on and on about assumptions and heresay with no interest in a first hand experience being shared, and have the self righteousness to disregard what is being said and obliviate more.
Long-winded, eloquent words are only words Pan.

 

[Fluffernutter]

A lot of people claim it is a symbol of southern pride and heritage. Few of those people have ever cracked a history book. I am from the south so I have seen quite a bit of this nonsense. I don't really agree with the statues coming down. That is part of American history and it shouldn't be wiped away.

They should just become more like the north east and obsess over their professional sports teams.

 

[Phr3121]

And they are the ones associating themselves with the Confederate, not me. And given the explicitly white supremacy on which the Confederacy was founded, perhaps they have a case for that.

The Confederacy was founded on 'white supremacy'? That's news to me. You are not an American either like 'Danny' below are you? Both of you should read the information included in the debate we had here on Sherdog regarding the American Civil War a while back.

Debate #4: 'Was the South justified in seceding from the Union.'
Link: http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/w...ceding-from-the-union.3542261/#post-130553945

Again, the South fought primarily for state rights. Slavery was a secondary reason. They were not happy with the Government intervening in their affairs. Similar to the reason the Americans fought the British. Taxation a big reason in both conflicts. Lincoln was against slavery but not equal rights for blacks, in fact he wanted blacks moved to Haiti after the Civil War. More Americans were killed during the Civil War than during World War II. In fact twice the number during the Civil War. I respect the Confederates who died for their cause. It wiped out a whole generation of young man in the South. But in the end I side with the Union and am happy the North won the war and maintained the country united.

That's right, same old shit from a numbskull: accuse people of being offended because they disagree with you and classic misdirection. We're talking about the Confederacy, not Canada, you Oklahoma hick.

* Please refer to what I wrote above. I favor a good debate and love when people disagree with me. However I take issue with people who start a thread or a post with insults. They are usually idiots who can't explain their point of view, so they resort to insults. Typical signature of someone with a low IQ. As stated above, I side with the North in the American Civil War conflict and am happy the country remained united. However, I have great respect for the Americans from the South who died for their cause. Proud to be in the South. We are called 'rednecks' down here, 'hicks' live in trailer parks or the country. I live in the city. 'Hillbillies' are from West Virginia.

Going back to your original question: 'Why do so many Americans value the Confederacy? How do they justify that Confederate stuff is not a symbol of slavery?' You did not do your homework on Canadian slavery did you? If you had you would understand that slavery and the Confederate flag are two different issues. Add lazy to being stupid. Now, my turn. Why are Canadians stupid? How can you justify Canadians being smart when you are stupid?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The Confederacy was founded on 'white supremacy'? That's news to me. You are not an American either like 'Danny' below are you? Both of you should read the information included in the debate we had here on Sherdog regarding the American Civil War a while back.

Debate #4: 'Was the South justified in seceding from the Union.'
Link: http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/w...ceding-from-the-union.3542261/#post-130553945

Again, the South fought primarily for state rights. Slavery was a secondary reason. They were not happy with the Government intervening in their affairs. Similar to the reason the Americans fought the British. Taxation a big reason in both conflicts. Lincoln was against slavery but not equal rights for black, in fact he wanted blacks moved to Haiti after the Civil War. More Americans were killed during the Civil War than during World War II. In fact twice the number during the Civil War. I respect the Confederates who died for their cause. It wiped out a whole generation of young man in the South. But in the end I side with the Union and am happy the North won the war and maintained the country united.



* Please refer to what I wrote above. I favor a good debate and love when people disagree with me. However I take issue with people who start a thread or a post with insults. They are usually idiots who can't explain their point of view, so they resort to insults. Typical signature of someone with a low IQ. As stated above, I side with the North in the American Civil War conflict and am happy the country remained united. However, I have great respect for the Americans from the South who died for their cause. Proud to be in the South. We are called 'rednecks' down here, 'hicks' live in trailer parks or the country. I live in the city. 'Hillbillies' are from West Virginia.

Going back to your original question: 'Why do so many Americans value the Confederacy? How do they justify that Confederate stuff is not a symbol of slavery?' You did not do your homework on Canadian slavery did you? If you had you would understand that slavery and the Confederate flag are two different issues. Add lazy to being stupid. Now, my turn. Why are Canadians stupid? How can you justify Canadians being smart when you are stupid?

It's noteworthy that the Confederate Constitution made it impossible for any state to prohibit slavery, which showed that slavery trumped states rights politically.

States rights didn't include the right to end slavery. Something to think about when you're deciding what issues are principle and which are secondary.

 

[Phr3121]

Two more for the shopping block: Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.

. Lincoln: Take down his monument in Washington D.C. and his face off Mount Rushmore. Lincoln did not favor equal rights for free slaves and wanted them moved to Haiti after the American Civil War.

. Jefferson: Take down his monument in Washington D.C. He owned many slaves and fathered a few children with a few of them.

* What about the 10 U.S. Army bases proudly named for Confederate officers (above), are we going to rename them with the names of Union officers?

Flags, monuments, schools, etc. How far will this go? I saw this coming during Obama's last year in office. Obama's bleeding heart for blacks shot by the police but no response to white Americans killed by ISIS or the death of white police officers. Liberalism at its worst. Thankfully Trump is in office now to clean up the mess.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Two more for the shopping block: Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.

. Lincoln: Take down his monument in Washington D.C. and his face off Mount Rushmore. Lincoln did not favor equal rights for free slaves and wanted them moved to Haiti after the American Civil War.

. Jefferson: Take down his monument in Washington D.C. He owned many slaves and fathered a few children with a few of them.

* What about the 10 U.S. Army bases proudly named for Confederate officers (above), are we going to rename them with the names of Union officers?

Flags, monuments, schools, etc. How far will this go? I saw this coming during Obama's last year in office. Obama's bleeding heart for blacks shot by the police but no response to white Americans killed by ISIS or the death of white police officers. Liberalism at its worst. Thankfully Trump is in office now to clean up the mess.

I think the first to go should be Roosevelt. Get his Japanese interning ass off the dime ASAP.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The best explanation I have heard that deals with the complexity of the issue:

I've read his works in their entirety. He's an excellent story teller and has a gift for breaking down complex issue for popular consumption. He does run into trouble when from time to time some of his ancedotes are unsourced, including one he uses in this clip, where a Southern soldier is alleged to have said to a Northern soldier "I'm fighting because you're down here." No one knows where he got that, but he trotted it out often for these kinds of explanations.

Foote is a great read, especially for anyone ignorant of the history of that war, but he's certainly more sympathetic to the Southern side than most American historians.

 

[STEVEN SEAGOLD]

Implicit Racism.

 

[Phr3121]

It's noteworthy that the Confederate Constitution made it impossible for any state to prohibit slavery, which showed that slavery trumped states rights politically. States rights didn't include the right to end slavery.

The American Constitution was already pro-slavery before the Civil War. Lincoln allowed Northern states that did not secede to keep their slaves. Even if the Confederate Constitution was to favor slavery it does not mean you have to have slavery. Many blacks continued to work in plantations throughout the South after the Civil War. The North certainly did not want them. Just because Americans are allowed to own guns does not mean every American is going to buy a gun. Taxation by Northern states is by far a bigger reason for the South to secede. The Civil War began over exploitive protectionist tariffs. Slavery certainly was a factor in the Civil War, but it was partly the economic pressures on the South that made slavery an issue. If the South gained their rights it would automatically cover the slavery clause. You still have not proven to me that slavery was the primary reason for the South to secede.

@Captain Davis

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Because of Lost Cause propaganda.

The Souths defeat and subsequent occupation was so devastating and humiliating that they devised propaganda which excused their actions to explain their losses. Movies like Birth of a Nation and Gone with the Wind are examples of that. Propaganda which painted the South as valiant, noble heroes instead of as ignorant, arrogant, traitorous, slavers who were relics of their time, helped them cope with the reality of defeat, and also was pushed into the North to gain sympathizers there so the North wouldnt punish them too harshly or occupy them for too long. Note Reconstruction and how things changed after the Northerners pulled out from the South after 20 years.

With movies like those spreading the propaganda, its easy to see why the Confederacy has supporters in every part of the US, and in other countries and still today hundred years later.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The American Constitution was already pro-slavery before the Civil War.

How so?

Lincoln allowed Northern states that did not secede to keep their slaves.

This is a poor understanding of what happened. The Emancipation Proclamation was what we'd call an executive order, and it disposed of captured goods in rebel states, something which was under the Commander-in-chiefs purview. The Proclamation thus essentially envisioned all captured slaves as war booty and of all those still enslaved in seceded states as enemy resources. So freeing them was presented as an act of war to hurt the Confederacy, which brilliantly undercut potential complaints from the Democrats in the North, who were already abttling perceptions that thy were soft on Secession.

Lincoln had no authority to free slaves in non-rebellious states, so he didn't. That was the job of Congress and state conventions, so he left it to them. However, given that the vast majority of slaves were in seeded states, his Proclamation effectively ended slavery in every way except the final formality and he and his party set in motion the 13-15th Amendments for ratification, which did finally and officially prohibit slavery.

Anyone telling you Lincoln didn't kill slavery root and branch has a poor understanding of history. There's a reason the South seceded upon his election. Listen to the guy's speeches. He always had abolitionist ambitions, and he did in fact end American slavery.

Even if the Confederate Constitution was to favor slavery it does not mean you have to have slavery.

It meant that for all the talk about states' right, in the Confederacy states' rights did not extend to primary questions related to slavery. States did not possess the right to prohibit slavery. It establishes the primacy of slavery over states rights right in their foundational documents. Ultimately, slavery trumped states rights in the Confederate Constitution. I find that rather clarifying.

The Civil War began over exploitive protectionist tariffs.

Nonsense. The Nullification Crisis in the 1830s was over protectionist tariffs and Calhoun and other leading proponents of nullification made the argument that if the Northern states could impose protective tariffs at the expense of the Southern states, then one day they would also end slavery. This shows that even when the fight over tariffs was at its highest pitch, the real fear of the South was protecting slavery. Meaning they realized that the federal framework, combined with the burgeoning population of the North, made the termination of American slavery inevitable under the US Constitution.

 

[Phr3121]

The Souths defeat and subsequent occupation was so devastating and humiliating that they devised propaganda which excused their actions to explain their losses. Movies like Birth of a Nation and Gone with the Wind are examples of that. Propaganda which painted the South as valiant, noble heroes instead of as ignorant, arrogant, traitorous, slavers who were relics of their time, helped them cope with the reality of defeat, and also was pushed into the North to gain sympathizers there so the North wouldnt punish them too harshly or occupy them for too long.

Well, the North did not give two shits about the South after winning the Civil War. Most of the war was fought in the South and that is where most of the destruction occurred. The occupation of the South by the North had to do with enforcing Federal laws and keeping order not reconstruction. 'Birth of a Nation' was released in 1915 and was based mainly on making the Ku Klux Klan look like heroes of the South. 'Gone with the Wind' was released almost 75 years after the war. Not much changed in the South after the war and certainly not much changed for blacks in the South until the 1960s - Segregation. Not slaves but not true Americans either. Blacks had more freedom and respect fighting in WWII than they did back home.

 

[AlexDB9]

Just because we allowed France to have their country back does not mean they won the war. The American Confederacy was for a time its own country with its own President so my comparison is valid. I am glad you made it clear that you are no expert on history in your OP because it shows.

I'm pretty sure a Confederate re-enactment army drunk on s'more schnapps would take Paris in about a week