Why do Central Asian Countries produce such great Wrestlers and Fighters

[marvinparsons]

Then you're not capable of following a simple train of thought and argument. Read my first post in this thread again.

I'm good

 

[Gigacardio]

I'm good

Doesn't seem like it...

 

[Royce's Gi]

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about or how it relates to fighters from Dagestan being good at wrestling.

Because manliness hasn't been eradicated in those societies like in the western world.

No such thing as "Toxic Masculinity" in those Regions.

In Dagestan men can be men without people becoming triggered and women know their place (with a blanket over their head).

 

[GreenGorilla]

Very simple answer imo, soviet sports school.
Why is Cuba so much better at boxing then the surrounding countries? Or even Wrestling, I mean look at Lopez ffs that guy is a Juggernaught in Greco Roman.
It is because they put a lot emphasis and money into sports, in Germany to this day they teach a soviet style of boxing usually.

Genetics and culture might also come into play, if being a good fighter is valued obviously more people gonna become one than in a country or culture where there is less reason for people to become fighters.

 

[pankrat]

That is not the reason. The reason is that wrestling is the top sport in Dagestan/Chechnya, but it isn't a top sport in the rest of Russia. Wrestling is literally the #1 sport in Dagestan/Chechnya. A quick Google search shows that in Russia as a whole, football, ice hockey, handball, basketball, futsal, boxing, auto racing, volleyball, track, boxing, tennis and others are more popular than wrestling. None of which are precursors to MMA.

There are no Dagestani's in the NHL, NBA, or on the WTA tour. This has zero to do with their religion, the same as Canada's religion has nothing to do with being great at hockey and the religion in New Zealand has nothing to do with them being amazing at rugby. And why guys who were good at BJJ did well in early MMA and were shocker, from Brazil, which had nothing to do with their strict Catholic upbringing. If Alex Ovechkin had gotten into wrestling he would have probably murked the Dagestanis, all while being haram.

This is a pure fantasy and projection by people claiming that Islam is the reason for their success. There's zero proof and what proof we do have points in the opposite direction: a sport's popularity + genetics (Sri Lankans love rugby, but are not genetically well suited to the sport so don't do well, for example).

I guess loving Mao is what makes you good at ping pong too, not the fact that 200M of 1B people in China play ping pong.

Source: The most popular sport in Russia is soccer.[1] "Football topped the list of the most popular sports in Russia" . Ice hockey came in second with handball, basketball, futsal, boxing, auto racing, volleyball, athletics, tennis, and chess rounding out the top ten rankings.[2] Other popular sports include bandy, biathlon, figure skating, weightlifting, gymnastics, wrestling, martial arts, rugby union, and skiing.[3]

The fact soccer is the #1 sport in Russia counters the retarded Islam argument but doesnt help your overall argument.

Its not simply about whats the #1 sport in certain region, since soccer is the #1 sport in plenty of massive nations yet it was dominated, for quite a long time recently, by a relatively tiny country in Spain.

And the reason is that they had the better training methods, systematized since very young age.
Exactly the same goes for wrestling/fighting in Daguestan.

 

[Conan the K-9]

Wasn’t Abdulmanap himself a product of the sovjet sports school and passed that same sovjet (and eastern Germany) style training and discipline to his pupils? AKA Winning at all costs.

He was not as religious as the new generation, of the more extreme, only moustache shaving guys. Abdulmanap is still the main reason for the few successful fighters coming from that small region.

 

[marvinparsons]

The fact soccer is the #1 sport in Russia counters the retarded Islam argument but doesnt help your overall argument.

Its not simply about whats the #1 sport in certain region, since soccer is the #1 sport in plenty of massive nations yet it was dominated, for quite a long time recently, by a relatively tiny country in Spain.

And the reason is that they had the better training methods, systematized since very young age.
Exactly the same goes for wrestling/fighting in Daguestan.

I agree that they have good training in Dagestan, same as they have good training in Canada/NZ for rugby. When huge resources (people, time, money, the best people) get put into something you tend to get good at it. And people in Dagestan devote huge amount of resources to wrestling, which is why the training for it is good, but the training for ping-pong is likely shit. Nobody in Dagestan gives a fuck about ping-pong.

 

[pankrat]

I agree that they have good training in Dagestan, same as they have good training in Canada/NZ for rugby. When huge resources (people, time, money, the best people) get put into something you tend to get good at it. And people in Dagestan devote huge amount of resources to wrestling, which is why the training for it is good, but the training for ping-pong is likely shit. Nobody in Dagestan gives a fuck about ping-pong.

I insist, it's not simply because of popularity and amount of resources, which is what you imply.
The resouces dedicated by Spain to soccer is/are certainly not bigger than in UK, where soccer is almost a religion, or in countries that are much bigger and richer.

It's mainly about the training methods and that's not simply explained by the action of government.
The revolutionary system applied by Guardiola in soccer is not a result of that, it's a continuation of the work done by other masters in his field (some of them not even Spanish) which are not related to any action from governemnt.

Similar goes to Abdulmanap Nurmagomedov creating two p4p talents in a row as Khabib/Islam, or how suddenly Australia produces two p4p talents as Volk/Israel from a country that doesnt even dedicate such a huge amount of resources to the matter.

Are Guardiola, Abulmanap or Eugene Bareman a result of the "huge resources" dedicated to their activities from the government of Spain, Daguestan or Australia in comparison with other regions?....Nah, not really. It's way more complex/uncertain than that.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yes, as does Michael Chandler, Frankie Edgar, and hundreds of other elite fighters. You are trying to draw a line to causation when there barely is even correlation. And my guy, I've seen plenty of devout fighters of all faiths miss weight or show up unprepared for a bout.

Khabib and Islam have missed weight/come very close several times. That's my point, this mythical Islamic dedication to training suddenly vanished at the most grueling part of camp. It's not a knock on Islam of these fighters, it's just pointing out that attributing an athlete's discipline to their faith is comically unsupported. Where are all these elite combat sport athletes from Indonesia and India, either of which boasts dozens or hundreds of orders more debout Muslims?

I do agree that islamic faith plays a role. There is a resignation and fatalism associated with Islam that you don t see in other religions. I have posted this here once but I think that Muslim fighters can pull the inshallah card and essentially push themselves to their limit, knowing that whatever happens is God's will. Notice how calm they are all the time? That's Islam. That's another perspective than the western fighter. Of course there are Chandlers out there but they are 1) alone in their clique 2) surrounded by hip hop /pop culture bravado, bad tattooes, sluts and a showbusiness culture. 3) taking their strength from something else than religion. It's just not the same.

That's why Dagestan dominates and why other Stans also will.

 

[pankrat]

I do agree that islamic faith plays a role. There is a resignation and fatalism associated with Islam that you don t see in other religions. I have posted this here once but I think that Muslim fighters can pull the inshallah card and essentially push themselves to their limit, knowing that whatever happens is God's will. Notice how calm they are all the time? That's Islam. That's another perspective than the western fighter. Of course there are Chandlers out there but they are 1) alone in their clique 2) surrounded by hip hop /pop culture bravado, bad tattooes, sluts and a showbusiness culture. 3) taking their strength from something else than religion. It's just not the same.

That's why Dagestan dominates and why other Stans also will.

That's BS mate.

Japanese fighters can be as calm and willing to get to the limi in the ring yet dont have any relation with God.

On the other hand, the majority of Muslim communities dont represent at all what you as describing as characteristic of Muslims. Daguestan is a tiny % of the Muslim world.

 

[Van Daz]

Need good hand & eye coordination to eat rice with chopsticks.......

Have to be very persistent.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

That's BS mate.

Japanese fighters can be as calm and willing to get to the limi in the ring yet dont have any relation with God.

On the other hand, the majority of Muslim communities dont represent at all what you as describing as characteristic of Muslims. Daguestan is a tiny % of the Muslim world.

It's true. Other can be as calm. Thais come to mind in stadiums. Russians tend to be very stoic and calm, too, no matter the sport.

As I said it's not the only factor but it's an asset in a list of 5 or so main factors:
- wrestling first culture
- tough, warrior like cultures (Chechens, Avars, etc.) with a cultural glorification of individual strength and bravery
- islamic faith and discipline
- genetics prone to wrestling (disproportionate upper body on average)
- strong sense of community which in turn, induces stability

Nowhere else in the world will you find the conjunction of the above, in such a high concentration.

 

[markantony20]

Because there is nothing else to do.
Wrestling is to them what Candy Crush and Only Fans are to us.

Air drop them crates of smartphones and laptops with starlink connections and there won't be a single good Dagestani wrestler left in 5 years.

Basically this and also a lot of old Soviet era wrestling coaches are still around there.

 

[pankrat]

It's true. Other can be as calm. Thais come to mind in stadiums. Russians tend to be very stoic and calm, too, no matter the sport.

As I said it's not the only factor but it's an asset in a list of 5 or so main factors:
- wrestling first culture
- tough, warrior like cultures (Chechens, Avars, etc.) with a cultural glorification of individual strength and bravery
- islamic faith and discipline
- genetics prone to wrestling (disproportionate upper body on average)
- strong sense of community which in turn, induces stability

Nowhere else in the world will you find the conjunction of the above, in such a high concentration.

There is glorification of strenght and brabery, culture of discipline and wrestling tradition in plenty of corners around the world. Those are rather anecdotical or accidental factors, not the core of the matter.

To associate Islam with "faith and disciple" is BS. Period. That's debunked by the many nations with no such faith, or no faith at all, showing as much discipline as anybody, and by many Muslim regions not precisely being an example of discipline.

What produced so much great fighters from Daguestan is basically very good training system applied to wrestling/MMA (many coaches from the Soviet era, which was atheist btw) since young age and a very high % of the young men undergoing such system because there arent as many alternatives. They could believe in whatever God, or in no God at all

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

There is glorification of strenght and brabery, culture of discipline and wrestling tradition in plenty of corners around the world. Those are rather anecdotical or accidental factors, not the core of the matter.

To associate Islam with "faith and disciple" is BS. Period. That's debunked by the many nations with no such faith, or no faith at all, showing as much discipline as anybody, and by many Muslim regions not precisely being an example of discipline.

What produced so much great fighters from Daguestan is basically very good training system applied to wrestling/MMA (many coaches from the Soviet era, which was atheist btw) since young age and a very high % of the young men undergoing such system because there arent as many alternatives. They could believe in whatever God, or in no God at all

I think you may be mixing first point and second point. They are not correlated. But going to the first point, where else in the world do you think it occurs with such itensity as North Caucasus?

 

[sonhow]

There really isnt much else to do. If you dont have a partner to wrestle with, you look and you drag the nearest bear to wrestle you.

 

[pankrat]

I think you may be mixing first point and second point. They are not correlated. But going to the first point, where else in the world do you think it occurs with such itensity as North Caucasus?

Excuse me, what's supposed to be "the first point"?

If you mean the "glorification of strenght and bravery"...it's basically an empty point. On the one hand there is such glorification in about every corner in the world, particularly in the whole Russian nations and satelites, as well as Poland, and its anyways impossible to quantify such alleged glorification.
On the other hand, strenght and bravery can be manifested in plenty of ways and particularly fighting arts, not just wrestling in particular.

It seems evident to me that the two points I refered to are vastly more crucial than vague notions about "strenght glorification" and "Islam faith and discipline" which are not even very consistent

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

There is glorification of strenght and brabery, culture of discipline and wrestling tradition in plenty of corners around the world.

Where are these elements to be found, at a higher degree, or even approaching Dagestan?

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Dagestan and Russia in general have a very good amateur developmental system, and invest a lot in their amateur athletes as a whole.

Wrestling is primarily an amateur sport.

Not really that hard to figure out. Has nothing to do with being religious. Religious people are not more disciplined than non-religious people. If that were true than Dagestan would be producing a lot more people who use their brains.

Dagestan is a place that is close to gang and terrorist hot beds. People go into athletics to avoid that stuff. Most places with those features in the world like Afghanistan for instance, do not have great athletic infrastructure, but Dagestan is in Russia so...

 

[Hotora86]

This is such a funny image lol

Just imagining that instead of a staff room where people go veg out on a sofa and doomscroll on their screens, the local supermarket just has some mats out back where the lads just go for a quick 15 minutes of Olympic level wrestling lol

I wish that was true. When we do pushups with my coworker the surrounding phone-zombie fatties look at us as if WE are the crazy ones!