Whos a better MMA grappler, Sonnen or Fedor?

This fights gonna go like Jones vs. Sonnen but Chael will be playing the part of Jones.
 
Chael might be a better grappler but Fedor is definitely the better submission artist
 
I dont know and don't rea;;y care tbh. What I care about is the fight itself. An interesting one for sure!
 
MikeMcMann said:
Chael's MMA wrestling has never been very good.

His regular wrestling is great and anyone vulnerable to high level regular wrestling in MMA (and there are a lot) will be vulnerable to Chael. However anyone not vulnerable to regular wrestling (have great subs, etc) is not vulnerable to Chael or any regular wrestler fighter. Think of the early UFC days when guys with just BJJ could dominate even if they did not adapt their BJJ to MMA. Guys just could not defend even pure BJJ.

Chael is lucky that he fought in a generally weak MW division during his prime as I cannot think of any other top wrestling based fighter in any other division who did not adapt their wrestling well to MMA (great sub defense, etc) in order to be competitive in their division.
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You must be stuck in 2005, to say Chael didnt adapt his wrestling to MMA is absurd. The guy may be a cunt or a clown in the mic, but behind that, there is a hell of a hard-working guy from a top gym, concretely in the wrestling dept, which resulted on him massively evolving his all around mma grappling throught the years.
So Yushin Okami, a guy who stopped 18 takedowns from Mark Munoz in one night, stuffed Marquardt, Lombard or Jake Shields back in the day, has still one of the highest TDD % in ufc...is weak. So are Marquard or Rua?
Is Michael Bisping a guy with weak defensive wrestling, really?
Isnt Anderson well versed in submissions? The guy need 24 minuts of fighting to get a submission in their firt fight. In the first round of their second fight, Chael took him down at will and ended the round on full mount. Something the Chael from 2005 couldnt have done.
He has also done well in grappling matches lately...the guys evolved on a really all-around solid grappler. To deny this is pretty stupid..
Obviously beating an all time great heavyweight in Fedor is another thing.

TheVenom said:
Mma is crazy. This is really a thread.

Overall, Fedor has had better mma grappling than Sonnen and it’s not close. Sonnen can’t defend a triangle to save his life.
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Sonnen has only got caught in a triangle by Maia and the then #1p4p and still GOAT to many Anderson Silva. No other caught him in a triangle in the last 13 years. But whatever
 
Durruti said:
You must be stuck in 2005, to say Chael didnt adapt his wrestling to MMA is absurd. The guy may be a cunt or a clown in the mic, but behind that, there is a hell of a hard-working guy from a top gym, concretely in the wrestling dept, which resulted on him massively evolving his all around mma grappling throught the years.
So Yushin Okami, a guy who stopped 18 takedowns from Mark Munoz in one night, stuffed Marquardt, Lombard or Jake Shields back in the day, has still one of the highest TDD % in ufc...is weak. So are Marquard or Rua?
Is Michael Bisping a guy with weak defensive wrestling, really?
Isnt Anderson well versed in submissions? The guy need 24 minuts of fighting to get a submission in their firt fight. In the first round of their second fight, Chael took him down at will and ended the round on full mount. Something the Chael from 2005 couldnt have done.
He has also done well in grappling matches lately...the guys evolved on a really all-around solid grappler. To deny this is pretty stupid..
Obviously beating an all time great heavyweight in Fedor is another thing.



Sonnen has only got caught in a triangle by Maia and the then #1p4p and still GOAT to many Anderson Silva. No other caught him in a triangle in the last 13 years. But whatever
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9 sub losses in his career, 4 by triangle.

Fedor has been subbed only by Werdum and dominated the guard of Nog when that meant something. I guess Sonnen’s 9 sub losses to Fedor’s 1 is indicative of Sonnen’s superior grappling. But whatever.
 
Yeah in his prime Fedor swept Nog and held down Cro Cop. Was adept in every phase on the floor. Now? Who knows. Fedor is shot to pieces, but still can pull a win out.
 
TheVenom said:
9 sub losses in his career, 4 by triangle.

Fedor has been subbed only by Werdum and dominated the guard of Nog when that meant something. I guess Sonnen’s 9 sub losses to Fedor’s 1 is indicative of Sonnen’s superior grappling. But whatever.
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Im not even saying Sonnen is a better grappler.

Just saying that talking about sub losses that Sonnen suffered back in 2004 or 2005 doenst mean shit. If you dont see that he has evolved his grappling so much in the last 15 years it your problem
 
Durruti said:
Im not even saying Sonnen is a better grappler.

Just saying that talking about sub losses that Sonnen suffered back in 2004 or 2005 doenst mean shit. If you dont see that he has evolved his grappling so much in the last 15 years it your problem
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That’s not the question. The thread asks who has better mma grappling. Sonnen literally lost by sub last year in January. He has a long history of terrible sub defense. This is not about losses he just had in 2004-2005. This is the story of his career. Out of 15 losses, 9 came by way of submission. Sonnen’s biggest weakest in a fight is his defense on the ground. That’s not something you’d want on your resume when debating on who has better grappling.
 
Durruti said:
You must be stuck in 2005, to say Chael didnt adapt his wrestling to MMA is absurd. The guy may be a cunt or a clown in the mic, but behind that, there is a hell of a hard-working guy from a top gym, concretely in the wrestling dept, which resulted on him massively evolving his all around mma grappling throught the years.
So Yushin Okami, a guy who stopped 18 takedowns from Mark Munoz in one night, stuffed Marquardt, Lombard or Jake Shields back in the day, has still one of the highest TDD % in ufc...is weak. So are Marquard or Rua?
Is Michael Bisping a guy with weak defensive wrestling, really?
Isnt Anderson well versed in submissions? The guy need 24 minuts of fighting to get a submission in their firt fight. In the first round of their second fight, Chael took him down at will and ended the round on full mount. Something the Chael from 2005 couldnt have done.
He has also done well in grappling matches lately...the guys evolved on a really all-around solid grappler. To deny this is pretty stupid..
Obviously beating an all time great heavyweight in Fedor is another thing.

...
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Chael did not adapt his wrestling to MMA like others did in other divisions to be competitive. He was still as vulnerable to a triangle choke or other submissions as many of the wrestlers in the infancy of this sport. He was visibly terrified when faced with a good submission artist and ready to tap out almost instantly.

Had Chael adapted his wrestling to MMA wrestling there is no way Anderson taps him out with less than 2 minutes in the 5th round. He should have easily been able to ride that out to a decision even from within the triangle Anderson caught him in.

Nope, you do not see any other top wrestlers who have risen to the top of other divisions with the blatant hole in their game Chael has with regards to sub defense.

Chael was a great wrestler and even today a high level wrestler with no other MMA training can have success if he is matched up with guys who have poor tdd and no sub threat. They jsut cannot get the wrestler out of top control and they lose the decision.
 
TheVenom said:
That’s not the question. The thread asks who has better mma grappling. Sonnen literally lost by sub last year in January. He has a long history of terrible sub defense. This is not about losses he just had in 2004-2005. This is the story of his career. Out of 15 losses, 9 came by way of submission. Sonnen’s biggest weakest in a fight is his defense on the ground. That’s not something you’d want on your resume when debating on who has better grappling.
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My answer to the question in the thread is Fedor, yeah.

If you compare the Fedor that had absolutely no answer to Big Foot in the ground, or the one that was unable to take down a poor grappler in Maldonado, to the Sonnen who went from 2008 to 2013 in an incredible run that got him to three tittle shots and only got subbed by two great sub artists in Maia and Anderson in that process, the answer isn't that clear.
 
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MikeMcMann said:
Chael was a great wrestler and even today a high level wrestler with no other MMA training can have success if he is matched up with guys who have poor tdd and no sub threat. They jsut cannot get the wrestler out of top control and they lose the decision.
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I have already told you that he has beat guys who had not poor tdd at all. Sonnen managed to outwrestle them, which many other very accomplished wrestlers failed to do. You want to tell me that the only reason is that MW was weak, but you look at, for example, the incredible winning streak of Jake Shields at WW where we was outwrestling everyone with ease, and the one who gave him more problems in that regard during that run was no other than a MW in Okami. Bisping has holes in his game but he has not poor tdd at all, regardless of the weightclass. Same for Marquardt, or Shogun Rua. These are not guys who would lose to the one dimensional wrestlers from the 90's as you are trying to imply

If not being Maia means you have no sub threat, then yeah. But he has been on top of many people for long time that had good sub skills of his own, or at least good scrambling, and still couldn work it on Sonnen.

You dont want to recognize that the Sonnen from his early days can be compared to the wrestlers from the early days of the sport as you are doing. But the Sonnen from 2008-2013 is not that clueless wrestler in he ground
 
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mmacrisis said:
Fedor in his prime definitely, but I think Chael has a good shot to beat him.
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Less than Mir had, I would say Mir had 45% of chances and Chael has 20% to beat fedor on Oct 13. MMA's world will be very happy when the goat wins the tournament
 
Fedor hip throw on Mir shows he had some grappling left in him when he remembers to use it.

Fedor is much more powerful grappling wise but Sonnen puts it togeather with striking better and can controll guys on the ground better. At this stage I’m saying Sonnen.
 
How many times has Fedor been submitted ? How many times has Chael been submitted ? There ya go.

Chael tapped to a weak choke from Tito, Fedor had TRT Bigfoot , with a 50lb weight advantage, squeezing a side choke for a good 15 seconds before escaping.
 
Fedor was submitted by Werdum. Sonnen has a whole laundry list of people who have submitted him
 
Post 2010? Sonnen

Fedor until 2010 imo.

I dont see him subbing Sonnen. Dude wasnt just yanking it for all that time while he was off during suspension doing Metamoris and training in a gi.

It'll probably be a stalemate with Sonnen in top control (Guard, Half Guard) in their fight imo.
 
FKA said:
Tito ran through sonnen,wandy caught him with his grandpa speed loopy shots........

Fedor by GOD'S WILL!!!!
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I think Fedor will win but anyone with half a brain knows that Sonnen-Ortiz fight was fixed.
 
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