white belt beating black belt

[esila]

Think about how runners wear weighted braces/vests in training, then when you take them off you're greased lightning. i think this is the way no-gi oriented people like myself should look at the gi.

+100 to this. The "greased lightning" is probably the way I'll be describing the feeling now of training in a gi vs. someone without a gi, then taking the gi off and fighting pure no gi vs. no gi. I've also used "like a fish back in the water" to describe it

For the skeptics out there, try it. Put on a gi and let your partner (not wearing a gi) use all the grips they want to use. You will notice habits / holes in your game you otherwise didn't think you had. Then, take the gi off and notice the improvement. I found that I was much more precise and methodical in my no gi passing game. This is one of the best ways to improve your guard passing game IMO.

 

[fourfif**]

Thanks. lol.

I also think that for myself saying I am a white belt is a way of honoring the legacy of the great Brazilian teams and athletes I have learned so much from over the years (via the web and books).

I mean, I could say I am a grappler and have never done jiu-jitsu. But, I feel like that sort of denies the fact that everything I know about grappling, I wouldn't know if it weren't for the Gracie family and all the Brazilians that came after them. I sort of feel like I am short changing them if I say that what I do is something different from jiu-jitsu and doesn't come from them.

In fact, back when I started training, people would have reproached me if I said I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu. They would have said, "Grappling....wtf is grappling.....man you are just a jiu-jitsu white belt.....you are not doing anything new! You didn't invent a new discipline just because you don't wear the gi. That's our stuff."

Perceptions have changed a lot since then.

wow, this whole gi/nogi thing really chaps some people's hides. I like to train without a gi too. I don't really have an opinion on whether people should do one, or the other or both. It's just a matter of personal preferences I guess. I don't really encounter that gi vs nogi stuff except online to be honest with you.

It's all grappling to me. bjj with a gi, nogi, wrestling, judo, whatever.

meh.

 

[tap21]

wow, this whole gi/nogi thing really chaps some people's hides. I like to train without a gi too. I don't really encounter that gi vs nogi stuff except online to be honest with you.

It's all grappling to me. bjj with a gi, nogi, wrestling, judo, whatever.

meh.

You make good points. I think everybody will come to something like this view in the end.

 

[tap21]

+100 to this. The "greased lightning" is probably the way I'll be describing the feeling now of training in a gi vs. someone without a gi, then taking the gi off and fighting pure no gi vs. no gi. I've also used "like a fish back in the water" to describe it

For the skeptics out there, try it. Put on a gi and let your partner (not wearing a gi) use all the grips they want to use. You will notice habits / holes in your game you otherwise didn't think you had. Then, take the gi off and notice the improvement. I found that I was much more precise and methodical in my no gi passing game. This is one of the best ways to improve your guard passing game IMO.

Not trying to start a whole argument on this, but of course the inverse is also true.
A lot of guys take off the gi for the first time and are amazed at how much harder it is to sub their opponent without the gi grips. Their finishing skills often skyrocket when they start training no-gi for the first time.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Not trying to start a whole argument on this, but of course the inverse is also true.
A lot of guys take off the gi for the first time and are amazed at how much harder it is to sub their opponent without the gi grips. Their finishing skills often skyrocket when they start training no-gi for the first time.

Only if they never train no-gi. which is greater than or equally silly to never training gi IMHO.

 

[Doughbelly]

I didn't say you need to train in the gi to win. I said the gi is an excellent training tool for building valuable skills and attributes. Please don't misunderstand; this argument is based on facts and easily measurable results. I'm going to take a wild guess that you're one of the guys that put on the gi and got held down by bigger guys, it slowed you down, you couldn't move the way you wanted to in someone's guard, and you always felt like it was in the way helping your opponent who wouldn't be able to last against you if you fought without the gi. Well for me that is the point. Think about how runners wear weighted braces/vests in training, then when you take them off you're greased lightning. i think this is the way no-gi oriented people like myself should look at the gi.

With your 1 legit example I can provide 100's more to support my theory. I'm a scientific minded person so I'm a big believer in evidence and facts. I don't go much on faith. I've personally witnessed massive jumps in skill from peope that had been training no-gi for years then threw on the gi.

I'd say there's insufficient evidence for making conclusions on this, Mikey.

Put it this way. Let's say a competitor decides to put on a gi, trains for and participates in gi competitions. Let's go ahead and give you your supposition that people who do this, do in fact improve their overall game. Let's say you can prove a strong correlation between the two. You still haven't proved cause.

There are any number of factors that could lead to an improvement and many of them aren't strictly related to the gi. It could be that competitors who choose to do this are going from lower quality instruction to higher quality instruction. This could be true even if they have the same instructor - maybe he is more competent and confident instructing in a gi and this leads to his students handicapping themselves. Maybe a no gi guy, many of whom are MMA oriented, simply spend more time in focused grappling when they choose to learn the gi game. It could be due to a camp change. It could be that there are more gi competitors, leading to a higher level of competition, thus elevating the nogi guy's overall grappling game. Or related to this, maybe there's simply more training partners who wear gis and competitive level isn't the factor.

Anyway, you said you wanted to look at it scientifically and a Science Fundamental 101 is correlation does not equal cause.

I am inclined to agree with you, though.

 

[knoxpk]

Im divided on the gi no gi thing.

I trained in wrestling for a long long time and when I put on a judo gi there were ALOT of differences, enough so that it caused me some issues.

On the other hand when mi gi wearing brethren took of the jackets they also found out there were several differences and they could no longer do what they were "used" to doing.

I see a similar parallel to BJJ. Certainly I can see that you have to be more calculated with the gi, a slower tighter game with the gi, protect your neck more with the gi but on the other hand there are grips you are used to not losing in the gi, it is a faster, sweatier game in no gi and you have to be pretty darn tight with your no gi subs if you are going to hit them.

I say to each his own.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

I'd say there's insufficient evidence for making conclusions on this, Mikey.

Put it this way. Let's say a competitor decides to put on a gi, trains for and participates in gi competitions. Let's go ahead and give you your supposition that people who do this, do in fact improve their overall game. Let's say you can prove a strong correlation between the two. You still haven't proved cause.

There are any number of factors that could lead to an improvement and many of them aren't strictly related to the gi. It could be that competitors who choose to do this are going from lower quality instruction to higher quality instruction. This could be true even if they have the same instructor - maybe he is more competent and confident instructing in a gi and this leads to his students handicapping themselves. Maybe a no gi guy, many of whom are MMA oriented, simply spend more time in focused grappling when they choose to learn the gi game. It could be due to a camp change. It could be that there are more gi competitors, leading to a higher level of competition, thus elevating the nogi guy's overall grappling game. Or related to this, maybe there's simply more training partners who wear gis and competitive level isn't the factor.

Anyway, you said you wanted to look at it scientifically and a Science Fundamental 101 is correlation does not equal cause.

I am inclined to agree with you, though.

you are 100% correct in what you stated, and that correlation does not equal cause, but I still think this is a very solid hypothesis based on witness of natural occurence, and perhaps someone should due a controlled experiment on it.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

On the other hand when mi gi wearing brethren took of the jackets they also found out there were several differences and they could no longer do what they were "used" to doing.

there's a difference between training in the gi, and training ONLY in the gi.

the best roman-greco guy I've ever trained with is also the best judoka I've ever trained with.

 

[Doughbelly]

you are 100% correct in what you stated, and that correlation does not equal cause, but I still think this is a very solid hypothesis based on witness of natural occurence, and perhaps someone should due a controlled experiment on it.

Why not you?

You're much more in the thick of it than I am, Mikey. You're an assistant instructor at Synergy, correct? You're in a good position to test what you might believe to be true. Why not run it by your instructor and then start training logs for people involved in different training programs at your academy?

So anyway, an untested hypothesis is really just a guess. Educated, as the case may be, but still just a guess.

Grass roots research like this is how MA based research and academic programs got started. You can go to the major PE universities in East Asia and there's entire libraries full of dissertations on MA and fight sport related research.

I don't know if you intend to go back to school or not, but this could be a fun and informative project. May as well start your data collection now.

 

[megatonjits]

I trained for a gi tournament recently at a no gi only place and did fine in the tournament the reverse is true as well. The first place I trained at I did gi only but only competed in no gi tournys which I did better in. That being said I started out as a wrestler in high school so I feel more comfortable without a gi on. I wonder if judo players feel the same way if they do no gi tourneys.

 

[Doughbelly]

I trained for a gi tournament recently at a no gi only place and did fine in the tournament the reverse is true as well. The first place I trained at I did gi only but only competed in no gi tournys which I did better in. That being said I started out as a wrestler in high school so I feel more comfortable without a gi on. I wonder if judo players feel the same way if they do no gi tourneys.

I went from mostly judo to no gi submission wrestling. Adjustment wasn't hard, tho a lot of things had to be tightened up. I feel the periods where I did no gi improved my overall grappling tremendously. I think this is for several reasons, some of which I pointed out earlier - a different set of instructors, training partners, training methodology, philosophy, etc.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Why not you?

You're much more in the thick of it than I am, Mikey. You're an assistant instructor at Synergy, correct? You're in a good position to test what you might believe to be true. Why not run it by your instructor and then start training logs for people involved in different training programs at your academy?

Synergy? no, you have me confused with someone else. I'm unfamiliar with synergy, and right now I'm not officially teaching anywhere.

So anyway, an untested hypothesis is really just a guess. Educated, as the case may be, but still just a guess.

Grass roots research like this is how MA based research and academic programs got started. You can go to the major PE universities in East Asia and there's entire libraries full of dissertations on MA and fight sport related research.

I don't know if you intend to go back to school or not, but this could be a fun and informative project. May as well start your data collection now.

Yeah, I actually had it on my mind today. I've been thinking of ways to make it happen, but at the moment I just don't have the resources. perhaps soon i will, and by then I'll have figured out how I want it run. A double blind would be nice, but difficult to pull off.

 

[fourfif**]

i'd be curious to know the results of such an experiment.

but at the end of the day, it won't matter. some people are gonna do judo, others will do greco, others freestyle, or folkstyle, or nogi, or bjj, or catch, or some combination of the aforementioned grappling styles. it just boils down to location, availability, quality of instruction in the various styles, time, money, but mostly just different strokes.

 

[knoxpk]

Only if they never train no-gi. which is greater than or equally silly to never training gi IMHO.

I do get your point Mikey and I understand where you are coming from but I would also consider Gi or No Gi that these people are still TRAINING. In other words it is the training under a great instructor that may be making them better as opposed to having the gi on.

If I am not mistaken most Good/Great BJJ coaches teach with the gi which means since they are great teachers the students will certainly improve. How many really really good BJJ clubs teach just no gi? Not many I assume.

So to me its a matter of training at all with a reputable coach, not necessarily what they are wearing. I would theorize that if you took 2 or 3 TOP BJJ coaches and have them teach just no gi for a year his grapplers would be as good and BETTER in no gi comps than guys who split time doing both. Again, the teacher and the athlete..IMO

Part of the reason I say this is b/c my 1st instructor taught us no gi 99.9% of the time and we only put on the jacket for maybe a week or 2 if it was chilly. I think I remember wearing the jacket 4 or 5 times in about 1.5+ years.
One of the guys in the club would regularly enter and place/win advanced no gi comps with very very little gi training.

I know that perhaps the field wasnt as big then as it was now but some of the guys he faced in the finals included Tolone and Popovich so they werent exactly slouches.

 

[Doughbelly]

Synergy? no, you have me confused with someone else. I'm unfamiliar with synergy, and right now I'm not officially teaching anywhere.

Whoops, brain fart while I was writing. I know you aren't Balto, dunno why I thought that at the time of writing.

Yeah, I actually had it on my mind today. I've been thinking of ways to make it happen, but at the moment I just don't have the resources. perhaps soon i will, and by then I'll have figured out how I want it run. A double blind would be nice, but difficult to pull off.

LOL. Yeah, you probably couldn't get that to work. I doubt anyone could.

But think about how you'd be able to test your ideas. There's too much about MAs that are stuck in the metaphorical dark ages in terms of beliefs.

 

[GJJ fighter]

submission basic armbar, nobody was keeping score

Was striking involved?