Where would you put PRIME Chuck Liddell in today's LHW top 10?

[myjohnson9]

I know his TDD is pretty good but the game has evolved. It's not just pure wrestling any more, but mixing things up and timing/setting up the takedowns.

I would be willing to bet Bader would get and hold Chuck down.

Bader has the best shot besides dc, Bader is massively underrated. But I still think chuck makes him miss take downs and pay for it. Gus, Glover, Jimi, Volkan, and Jan have no chance and would get boxed up

 

[mma_genius]

1. DC
2. Alexander Gustafsson
3. Ryan Bader
4. Volkan Oezdemir
5. Phil Davis
6. Glover Teixiera
7. Jan Blachowicz
8. Jimi Manuwa
9. IIir Latifi
10. Misha Cirkunov

wtf happened to the lhw division?! I don't even know who half these people are!

I put PRIME Chuck just under DC. And I would love to see a prime Chuck/DC fight, that would be extremely interesting. Chuck might just beat DC, who knows? Could DC take Chuck down? Probably. Could he KEEP Chuck down? Who knows? Could he handle standing with Chuck? Who knows? Chuck hit a LOT harder than Jon Jones and had better fight iq than Rumble, so who knows?

What say you?

Man, I don't know.

The supposed "Prime" years for chuck were filled with bad strikers, bloated middleweights and dudes that should not have been in the UFC.

Beating Couture and Tito twice was huge. Career defining.

I wish Randy hadn't tried to brawl in his first loss to chuck and I wish he hadn't slipped on the painted part of the mat in the second loss to chuck. Nothing against chuck, he did what he had to.

I think the "prime" years of Chuck were against less talented and less athletic guys. However styles do make fights. Tito's kryptonite was a guy like chuck he couldn't take down who had rangy long arms and good power.

I think the Chuck that lost to Jardine would have a tough time in today's 205 division. Could he beat some ofd those guys? Yeah, but I think he could lose to every single one of them too.

 

[Guffman]

He's be in the top 3, at the very least.

 

[MGS]

Just under Cirkunov

 

[egk]

Probably because people on here make crappy arguments and don't listen to what you're saying. It's irritating. I'm not even a chuck fan. I've said that several times. In his prime he fought Randy, Tito, Vitor, Mezger, Pele, Reem, Randleman, Babalu, Rampage.


Past prime he fought Wand and Shogun. Saying he didn't fight most of the top guys of his era ISN'T TRUE. It's a FALSE, BAD ARGUMENT. That's why it's annoying that people keep parroting it.

This is why VegetaGD wanted you guys to specify when Chuck's "Prime" was. I consider his prime to be his 7 fight championship reign since he lost two of his 3 fights just before that. According to you now, Chuck's prime is his whole career until he started losing regularly? That's typical of this kind of argument and why I find it such bullshit. "Prime" is whatever you want it to be that best suits your argument.

Shogun, Wand, Arona, Little Nog, Hendo and Rampage were probably the top LHWs in Pride while Chuck was UFC champion. Chuck never fought any of them except Rampage till late in his career and Rampage stopped him both times. Chuck fought excellent grapplers and one average striker while champ. Beating excellent grapplers who couldn't strike is why he rates so highly.

You're basically saying Prime Chuck carried over to his title reign even after being stopped by both Couture and Rampage the first time. But, when Chuck lost to Rampage the second time, suddenly his chin was cracked so everything else doesn't count? Even tho losing to Jardine was less than a year after "Prime Chuck" pasted Tito for the second time? Gee, I wonder how "Prime Keith" would do against today's LHWs?

 

[Vil7]

You're a casual

Good fighter but ugliest dude in mma

 

[Typrune Goatley]

This is why VegetaGD wanted you guys to specify when Chuck's "Prime" was. I consider his prime to be his 7 fight championship reign since he lost two of his 3 fights just before that. According to you now, Chuck's prime is his whole career until he started losing regularly? That's typical of this kind of argument and why I find it such bullshit. "Prime" is whatever you want it to be that best suits your argument.

Shogun, Wand, Arona, Little Nog, Hendo and Rampage were probably the top LHWs in Pride while Chuck was UFC champion. Chuck never fought any of them except Rampage till late in his career and Rampage stopped him both times. Chuck fought excellent grapplers and one average striker while champ. Beating excellent grapplers who couldn't strike is why he rates so highly.

You're basically saying Prime Chuck carried over to his title reign even after being stopped by both Couture and Rampage the first time. But, when Chuck lost to Rampage the second time, suddenly his chin was cracked so everything else doesn't count? Even tho losing to Jardine was less than a year after "Prime Chuck" pasted Tito for the second time? Gee, I wonder how "Prime Keith" would do against today's LHWs?

When Chuck fought Jardine, he was almost 38 years old and had just been KO'ed by Rampage less than 4 months before that. First fight coming back from a KO and losing belt and he still hurt Jardine bad in the first round. I don't think its fair to hold that against him. His chin and speed seemed to have been diminishing for years already at that point. First time I thought he looked like he was declining was the Tito rematch. A younger, faster Chuck would have put Jardine to sleep IMO

 

[4n4L53x]

Chuck would not be a top 10, he was never very good.

He won a title when the UFC LHW was very weak, the moment any decent competition came to the division he got smoked badly.

 

[egk]

When Chuck fought Jardine, he was almost 38 years old and had just been KO'ed by Rampage less than 4 months before that. First fight coming back from a KO and losing belt and he still hurt Jardine bad in the first round. I don't think its fair to hold that against him. His chin and speed seemed to have been diminishing for years already at that point. First time I thought he looked like he was declining was the Tito rematch. A younger, faster Chuck would have put Jardine to sleep IMO

I don't hold it against him. I just find it funny that "prime" moves around to be whatever people want. There's always an asterisk when someone's favorite loses but when they're fighting tailor made opponents as champion, no one ever puts an asterisk.

 

[Mike]

This is why VegetaGD wanted you guys to specify when Chuck's "Prime" was. I consider his prime to be his 7 fight championship reign since he lost two of his 3 fights just before that. According to you now, Chuck's prime is his whole career until he started losing regularly? That's typical of this kind of argument and why I find it such bullshit. "Prime" is whatever you want it to be that best suits your argument.

Shogun, Wand, Arona, Little Nog, Hendo and Rampage were probably the top LHWs in Pride while Chuck was UFC champion. Chuck never fought any of them except Rampage till late in his career and Rampage stopped him both times. Chuck fought excellent grapplers and one average striker while champ. Beating excellent grapplers who couldn't strike is why he rates so highly.

You're basically saying Prime Chuck carried over to his title reign even after being stopped by both Couture and Rampage the first time. But, when Chuck lost to Rampage the second time, suddenly his chin was cracked so everything else doesn't count? Even tho losing to Jardine was less than a year after "Prime Chuck" pasted Tito for the second time? Gee, I wonder how "Prime Keith" would do against today's LHWs?

You guys make the simplest concepts so complicated. People lose in their prime. That doesn't mean they are not in their prime. Yes, the second Rampage fight cracked his chin for good. How is that even a question? After that fight he looked awful against Jardine, including getting dropped by him. Then he looked good against an equally weathered wand. Then he was violently koed by everyone he fought, and early in the fight. Typically by the first good shot that landed. Even against guys not known for one punch kos like Franklin.


And JFC you think he was still in his prime when he fought Jardine? Just because he'd recently beaten Tito? This is why I keep saying your arguments are stupid and annoying to read.

 

[Mike]

I don't hold it against him. I just find it funny that "prime" moves around to be whatever people want. There's always an asterisk when someone's favorite loses but when they're fighting tailor made opponents as champion, no one ever puts an asterisk.

For the ten millionth time I am not, nor have I ever been, a chuck fan. Realizing a persons prime is over when they start getting flatlined by everyone they fight does not make me a chuck fanboy. My favorite lhw ever is Jones, not Chuck.

 

[Mike]

I'm also a bigger fan of wand, shogun, rampage, and Dan.

 

[Mike]

When Chuck fought Jardine, he was almost 38 years old and had just been KO'ed by Rampage less than 4 months before that. First fight coming back from a KO and losing belt and he still hurt Jardine bad in the first round. I don't think its fair to hold that against him. His chin and speed seemed to have been diminishing for years already at that point. First time I thought he looked like he was declining was the Tito rematch. A younger, faster Chuck would have put Jardine to sleep IMO

No this guy is saying he was in his prime because he hadn't started losing every fight yet. Just like crocop coming into the ufc with over 50 combined k1 and mma fights and entering his mid 30's with tons of wear and tear was "prime"


Because he had just won a tournament by koing a guy he beat 3x and a LHW

 

[Mike]

This is what it looks like when you argue stats you read on wiki without any context whatsoever. It's not like we were able to.... watch these guys career and see them visibly decline. No primes are a "myth" Especially because sometimes people lose in their primes. Really silly.

 

[savemgs]

I have Got JJ DC Alexander Gustafsson Volkan Oezdemir
Getting over on him. So top 5-7 Dame good still.

 

[egk]

And JFC you think he was still in his prime when he fought Jardine? Just because he'd recently beaten Tito? This is why I keep saying your arguments are stupid and annoying to read.

No, I don't think that was Chuck at his best. I just find it funny that you'll tout a very early win over fighters like Pele when Chuck had probably 3-4 inches and 20lbs on him. You'll tout wins over guys like Mezger who I don't think would stand much chance today. Hell, Tito KO'd him too you know? You'll tout a win over a very young Overeem who was getting knocked out a LOT back then. You'll ignore the fact Chuck didn't fight any of those top Pride guys I mentioned while he was champ. Suddenly there's an asterisk next to the Jardine fight.

Anyway, I'm glad we could keep this civil for the most part. We'll just have to agree to disagree on just how good Chuck was and how he'd do now. I find it sad that he's apparently back and going to fight Tito again. Only people who can't give up on the past want to see that.

 

[Agent Mulder's Hair]

No, I don't think that was Chuck at his best. I just find it funny that you'll tout a very early win over fighters like Pele when Chuck had probably 3-4 inches and 20lbs on him.

To put the Pele win in perspective....in Chuck's 2nd mma fight ever, he went down to brazil and fought a 30 min straight fight against a huge star and a guy with a LOT of experience...who was basically the Anderson Silva prototype....and beat him. In front of a brazilian crowd (if you know anything about brazilian crowds, they can get extremely hostile). Chuck even got dropped by a good high kick and weathered it, rallied back and came back to win. That is extremely impressive for ANYBODY'S 2nd ever mma fight. Most guys wouldn't have even attempted that for their 2nd fight, let alone got the win.

Anyway, I'm glad we could keep this civil for the most part. We'll just have to agree to disagree on just how good Chuck was and how he'd do now. I find it sad that he's apparently back and going to fight Tito again. Only people who can't give up on the past want to see that.

I don't think anybody really wants to see Chuck/Tito 3. I know I don't. I'll for sure watch it if they make it, though. I'd much rather see Chuck vs Chael though.

 

[egk]

This is what it looks like when you argue stats you read on wiki without any context whatsoever. It's not like we were able to.... watch these guys career and see them visibly decline. No primes are a "myth" Especially because sometimes people lose in their primes. Really silly.

I've been around for a while. I've watched the fights. I don't need Wiki to see the context. I think it's you who refuses to see the context of just who Chuck was fighting. It was a different era. Just consider what guys did Chuck beat in his prime who you think would be top 10 today in the LHW division? The one-dimensional Tito who was probably done over 10yrs ago? Randy maybe? Belfort on steroids? Randleman on steroids?

 

[Mike]

I've been around for a while. I've watched the fights. I don't need Wiki to see the context. I think it's you who refuses to see the context of just who Chuck was fighting. It was a different era. Just consider what guys did Chuck beat in his prime who you think would be top 10 today in the LHW division? The one-dimensional Tito who was probably done over 10yrs ago? Randy maybe? Belfort on steroids? Randleman on steroids?

I know it was a different era. Who are these amazing new breed lhws? I agree with most that Jones and DC are on another level. Gus to some degree. Who else? What have guys like Bader, Latifi, Jan, Manuwa, etc. ever done to show they're leaps and bounds above the previous eras lhws?

 

[egk]

I know it was a different era. Who are these amazing new breed lhws? I agree with most that Jones and DC are on another level. Gus to some degree. Who else? What have guys like Bader, Latifi, Jan, Manuwa, etc. ever done to show they're leaps and bounds above the previous eras lhws?

I didn't say they were an amazing new breed. I already said I'd put Chuck somewhere in the middle of the top 10. I think he'd lose to the very top guys, Jones, DC, Gus, Volkan. Bader and Davis are better wrestlers but he'd have a puncher's chance His brawling style would have a puncher's chance against a lot of guys but that style would also give better diciplined fighters who hit hard a chance to crack that chin just like Rampage did. Something Tito and grapplers like Horn and Sobral had no chance at.