what's wrong with socialism?

[lfd0311]

You suck at trolling and debating. Try harder.

I'm not trying to troll. I get that that's the point of your like 15 different accounts, but not me, guy.

 

[wonderbread]

True socialism is bad.. just like true capitalism is bad.

 

[InternetHero]

I agree with you. I'd like to learn more about true republicanism. Tell me please.

Fair enough.

Nothing novel or ground breaking.

What I mean is a republic in the Lockean sense of representative government delegated into different branches that have different responsibilities, checks and balances., and a constitutional order that awards rights to everyone regardless of race, sex, or class.

Another P.S. - democratic socialism can more or less meet these requirements, however, democratic socialism is not really single party rule "of the people."

In which case the left eventually absolves the government and institutions and replaces them with xyz forms of ineffectual and ugly variants.

 

[Prutfis]

Imagine if the drunken ass Per Hækkerup never signed over the rights to the Ekofisk oil field @Prutfis. I know it's an urban legend, but still funny as hell.

The shame of Denmark

 

[andnowweknow]

Rosenstein on his way to whitehouse...to be fired.

 

[andnowweknow]

Rosenstein resignation requested. Said they will have to fire him.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

So basically, you’re advocating for the elimination of the middle class? And here I thought the left was actually for the middle class. Who knew..


The system you’re dreaming of is a lie too. Producing ‘I have a dream’ type responses doesn’t prove otherwise. You’re essentially bitching because the world you live isn’t perfect and ‘class’ designation is your target for why that is.


I don’t agree when the system we reside in allows that anyone from any ‘class’ system has the ability to climb, or fall depending on many variables (you seem to agree with me that this is possible). Sure, opportunities may vary -even heavily- depending on which economic class you’re born into, but the fact that it’s possible to evolve from that position remains the same.


In short, I don’t agree that getting rid of a ‘class’ system would solve all the issues you claim it would -unless you have one of @worldofwarcrafts wizards available to you- it would simply produce different problems.

I'm didn't advocate for anything in my post. I simply gave an analysis of the current class system and

Here's what I am advocating for: in the short term, an increase in the standard of living for the working/lower class. Basically a Scandinavan-type system where classes still exist, the elites still rule, the lower classes still do the onerous work, but the suffering and indignity they live with is much less than the current one in our society.

In the long term, an elimination of the class system altogether is the only fair solution for those that truly cares about justice and fairness. That's something that should be worked towards.

And yes, anyone has the ability to climb or fall in the class system, but classes still exist, and that's my point. There's a limited number of slots in the middle and upper class and telling people that there's plenty of space for everyone in these slots is a lie.

And sure, a classless society wouldn't solve all issues, but the issues it would create would be far less severe than the ones we have now.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Everyone isn't equal though. People have different abilities, talents, strengths and weaknesses. Yes, all American citizens are equal under the law and should not be discriminated against based on sex, religion, race, ethnicity etc. but there will never be equality of outcomes without extreme measures taken by government that not everyone will agree with.

Btw, middle-class is rich in a relative sense. You have to start somewhere.

People can have different talents, strengths, and weaknesses, but these don't necessarily have to translate into social/economic ranking. They do in a class society, but they don't HAVE to.

And if we're going to talk about "extreme measures that not everyone will agree with" then we're talking about the present system. I can't go a day without hearing people complain about how much they hate their job. In a class society, the ruling class plans, decides, and delegates while the mass at the bottom has to obey orders. Not everyone agrees with this but we're told it's the only conceivable way to live so we just put up with it.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Unrelated to whoever you're responding to, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people use the "well, get a better job, go to college, learn a trade" when clerical-type workers lobby for higher wages.

Like, are those people incapable of thinking how horrible it would be for everyone if all fast food workers suddenly went to college or trade school? Debt would skyrocket, the price of goods and services would skyrocket as the efficiency of their distribution plummeted with a workforce that is both underpopulated and in constant flux, the white collar job market would become endlessly saturated, and the economy would grind to a halt - all because a bunch of dip shit wannabe armchair economists wanted to condescend about workers whose labor their consumption and convenience depends on, instead of submitting that they are humans and deserve a dignified existence.

This and the "well, you can start your own business!" are like the twin brothers of right-wing economic fantasy land.

Yeah, everyone should start their own business and boom, everyone's rich. Who are the employees that work for your business, the laborers that make your product, the ones that deliver your product? Who cares! If they don't like it, they should start their own business as well!

 

[RubberGuard5]

I'm didn't advocate for anything in my post. I simply gave an analysis of the current class system and

Here's what I am advocating for: in the short term, an increase in the standard of living for the working/lower class. Basically a Scandinavan-type system where classes still exist, the elites still rule, the lower classes still do the onerous work, but the suffering and indignity they live with is much less than the current one in our society.

In the long term, an elimination of the class system altogether is the only fair solution for those that truly cares about justice and fairness. That's something that should be worked towards.

And yes, anyone has the ability to climb or fall in the class system, but classes still exist, and that's my point. There's a limited number of slots in the middle and upper class and telling people that there's plenty of space for everyone in these slots is a lie.

And sure, a classless society wouldn't solve all issues, but the issues it would create would be far less severe than the ones we have now.

How would that work?

 

[Wingslaught]

People can have different talents, strengths, and weaknesses, but these don't necessarily have to translate into social/economic ranking. They do in a class society, but they don't HAVE to.

And if we're going to talk about "extreme measures that not everyone will agree with" then we're talking about the present system. I can't go a day without hearing people complain about how much they hate their job. In a class society, the ruling class plans, decides, and delegates while the mass at the bottom has to obey orders. Not everyone agrees with this but we're told it's the only conceivable way to live so we just put up with it.

I get it, your'e dissatisfied with the current system and you think a classless society would be better. But as the U.S. is unlikely to ever switch to wholesale Communism its probably better to focus on what you can control.

I do agree that there does seem to be some kind of issue in the economy where wages aren't rising commensurate with productivity, and I think that probably has to do with the Federal Reserve system. Ron Paul was really the only politician who wanted to tackle that issue, and he was hounded out of consideration for the Presidency by nearly everyone on both sides of the aisle.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

I'm not trying to troll. I get that that's the point of your like 15 different accounts, but not me, guy.

What do you mean?

 

[Possum Jenkins]

How would that work?

The gradual movement towards institutions that truly serve the people instead of the elite. You know, the way it's supposed to be.

From there, I favor the anarcho-syndicalist model. Workers own and manage all means of production, and representatives are temporary and immediately revocable.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I get it, your'e dissatisfied with the current system and you think a classless society would be better. But as the U.S. is unlikely to ever switch to wholesale Communism its probably better to focus on what you can control.

I do agree that there does seem to be some kind of issue in the economy where wages aren't rising commensurate with productivity, and I think that probably has to do with the Federal Reserve system. Ron Paul was really the only politician who wanted to tackle that issue, and he was hounded out of consideration for the Presidency by nearly everyone on both sides of the aisle.

Ron Paul and his type are the only ones that think the Federal Reserve is the main problem. Thankfully, he and his type have gone back to obscurity.

The rest of the world sees that it's clearly an issue of de-regulation and inaction on the part of the government. This is what happens when you give private power free reign. So the solution is to not give them free rein.

 

[RubberGuard5]

The gradual movement towards institutions that truly serve the people instead of the elite. You know, the way it's supposed to be.

From there, I favor the anarcho-syndicalist model. Workers own and manage all means of production, and representatives are temporary and immediately revocable.

I don't know enough about the subject to understand what that means in practice. For example, if Beyonce records a song and sells it via Internet a billion times for a dollar, who gets that money?

 

[M3t4tr0n]

Rosenstein resignation requested. Said they will have to fire him.

That's not good

 

[Ripskater]

 

[CauseImbetta]

Fair enough.

Nothing novel or ground breaking.

What I mean is a republic in the Lockean sense of representative government delegated into different branches that have different responsibilities, checks and balances., and a constitutional order that awards rights to everyone regardless of race, sex, or class.

Another P.S. - democratic socialism can more or less meet these requirements, however, democratic socialism is not really single party rule "of the people."

In which case the left eventually absolves the government and institutions and replaces them with xyz forms of ineffectual and ugly variants.

Sounds logical. i can support that. Isn't it alealdy like that now?

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I don't know enough about the subject to understand what that means in practice. For example, if Beyonce records a song and sells it via Internet a billion times for a dollar, who gets that money?

I can't give a specific breakdown of every single scenario.

In the case of artists, my guess is they would have to split their profits equally with the people distributing the music, producers, etc. After a certain ceiling is hit, maybe the profits would go into some sort of common fund. And no, this wouldn't dissuade creative expression. The "starving artist" image exists precisely because most artists would happily live in shabby conditions if it means they get to perform their art.

 

[RubberGuard5]

I can't give a specific breakdown of every single scenario.

In the case of artists, my guess is they would have to split their profits equally with the people distributing the music, producers, etc. After a certain ceiling is hit, maybe the profits would go into some sort of common fund. And no, this wouldn't dissuade creative expression. The "starving artist" image exists precisely because most artists would happily live in shabby conditions if it means they get to perform their art.

Wouldn't the fact that these artists could earn different amount of money mean that there are still classes?

And what happens with artists who don't earn enough because nobody wants to buy their art?