What's goin' down at Tocco's (video):

[Sinister]

Well, it only takes however much talent a guy has. People can get stronger and faster, but their limits are always going to be different. One thing I did with Bleu was gave him muscles. When that happened his game jumped up a couple of levels because he learned he could be tough as well as clever. Prior to that, someone like him just wasn't much of a tough guy. I've seen "weak" people excel in so many sports in the end, I don't think there's set templates of what needs to be there. I tell you the main thing you really need to get SOME gratifying modicum of success out of a Sport, but especially boxing.

1) A good instructor.

2) To show up every day.

I've got two guys who I'm about to LET spar for the first time within the next couple of weeks. I'll demonstrate this when I have some video. Because they don't appear to have any exceptional physical gifts. But you'll see them look good anyway. And then soon after that, you'll see them look good against more experienced people than they are.

 

[a guy]

Man the confidence you instilled in Daijon makes him look like a completely different person. He looks like he's really comfortable with what he's doing, and his use of the crab is pretty damn slick. Great to see that evolution.

I also love that all your guys can crack. No shitty, weak punching. They all have at least enough power to hurt you if they land clean and if you're out of position you're really fucked.

 

[Sinister]

That's an interesting thing that I didn't realize until someone made a series of videos of it. Like I didn't even ask for it, he just wanted to. But a guy who fought 3 of my fighters said "everyone you train hits hard as shit. I fought 3 of them and each one hit harder than the one before. The last one felt like he had rocks in his gloves."

So I had Arnor here:



Then Daijon, who is more known for his speed:



Then what's funny is that Paige is one of the ones who hits the mitts the best:



And I don't have any video of him, but my Ugandan fighter Shaun, in his last fight he knocked the guy down and knocked his mouthpiece out 3 times:



They still gave that decision to that other kid, though. LOL Also, for anyone wondering, mitts is NOT how I build their punching power. It's all technique and weight placement, they get to do mitt work AFTER they can punch correctly, not before. So these students are far enough along that they do more mitt work.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

That's an interesting thing that I didn't realize until someone made a series of videos of it. Like I didn't even ask for it, he just wanted to. But a guy who fought 3 of my fighters said "everyone you train hits hard as shit. I fought 3 of them and each one hit harder than the one before. The last one felt like he had rocks in his gloves."

So I had Arnor here:



Then Daijon, who is more known for his speed:



Then what's funny is that Paige is one of the ones who hits the mitts the best:



And I don't have any video of him, but my Ugandan fighter Shaun, in his last fight he knocked the guy down and knocked his mouthpiece out 3 times:



They still gave that decision to that other kid, though. LOL Also, for anyone wondering, mitts is NOT how I build their punching power. It's all technique and weight placement, they get to do mitt work AFTER they can punch correctly, not before. So these students are far enough along that they do more mitt work.

Somewhat unrelated, but do you include a lot of weight training in your guys S&C?

 

[Sinister]

Nope.

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

These videos make me really mourn the fact that I've never had a coach who really knew what to do with me. Don't get me wrong, I've worked with good coaches , I just typically don't mesh well with their approach which is almost always "Just do what I say". When I was less experienced this approach used to confuse the shit out me, I'm the kind of person who wants to understand why I do everything that I do (the purpose of every strike in a combo etc) so, when I'm not provided with that information, I second guess myself- the advice is usually great but I won't ever internalise it if I don't know why it works. Now I've picked up enough that I can interoperate most of what is shown to me but I feel like I would have progressed far quicker if I ever had a coach who was more conceptual in their approach.

 

[DoctorTaco]

All your guys are mechanically sounds sound but look so smooth in action. It's a trip. Paige has some serious leverage

 

[giancana]

"But a guy who fought 3 of my fighters said "everyone you train hits hard as shit. I fought 3 of them and each one hit harder than the one before. The last one felt like he had rocks in his gloves.""

from the joe louis thread -"So if you perform the motion slowly, outside rotation left, hip change, shoulder turn, arm extends, and knee drop. The foot turning is the last thing to happen...but if you're in the right position on the ball of the foot, then it's not likely going onto your toes is going to add anything" "when a coach tells you to turn your ankle, really you should turn your hip and only as far as to stabilize the punch, going even an inch further serves no purpose)"

To me that is the most intriguing part-the knee drop and the foot turning; most of the time it happens too early when I punch which robs me of leverage .

(As soon as my hip turns the knee and ankle moves the arm is not extended yet at that point...)

any possible explanation for this?

Other question : If a stance should be shoulder wide for optimal leverage how come pyramid position is used for increased leverage??? as Zudah, Dempsey, Williams,Lyle´s feet positioning was much wider than shoulder wide; I don´t get it...



A man who I really like to observe the knee drop and ankle turn at the right time is Ken Norton:



little notes for me quoting sin:

"Leverage is a matter of letting the weight only go minimally beyond the feet. After that the power dissipates, as there's less connection to the ground. This is why a lot of free-swinging wild punchers tend to not actually be very big hitters. Their balance is poor, as is their weight distribution over the course of the movement for a punch."

"By not shifting the weightforward but rather more diagonally downward, superior force can be delivered from a much more optimal distance. This is what's commonly referred to in boxing as "leverage"...however not meaning the literal use of a lever, but merely a similar principal of movement"

he does a good job too , you can see and hear how the weight moves as he punches (not too late or too early)



"Note how you can hear thumps on certain punches of his. This is how he was taught about weight distribution. Dip of the knees, tap of the toe. Now, with having had knee problems, of course the key is to keep your knees over your feet and not open space. So there's no pressure on the joint itself."

 

[Sinister]

1) It's very difficult for me to tell what's going wrong without a visual reference. Could be numerous issues, but the most common one I find is people's hips are just externally rotated. So their body tends to move backwards, shoulders turn...THEN hip/foot turns, if at all. If it's not that then it could just be a technique problem.

2) I don't think pyramid footwork adds leverage, I think it just gives them the ability to blast off stiff punches fairly quickly while standing still. If anything leverage is sacrificed, so non of the punches they do blast off would be harder than a single shot with better executed technique.

 

[Sinister]

Oh and we're live-streaming the First Friday sparring tonight. It'll be on the Gym's FB page in my signature. Should start around 9pm central.

 

[Sano]

Damn. What's your policy on concussions in the gym? Seems like the guys go hard. Do you have any protocol for continues headaches, any rest time they have to take if they are showing symptoms or set number of hard sparring sessions and such?

 

[Sinister]

Well any reputable Gym has a protocol for concussions. They're treated like any other medical situation. And yes, of course, rest if they show signs. No set number of hard sparring sessions. You sound worried. lol

 

[Sano]

Well any reputable Gym has a protocol for concussions. They're treated like any other medical situation. And yes, of course, rest if they show signs. No set number of hard sparring sessions. You sound worried. lol

Well, worried, perhaps. I see it as being smart about it, just like being smart about the skills and applications you're teaching, to some extent. I must admit I've gotten a new found respect for brain health.

I've taken a lot of hard shots to the face, and it has never bothered me. Frankly, I know it sounds kinda weird, but I like getting hit in the face. There's something exhilarating about it and when I get hit hard it's go time. I've had many days after sparring sessions where I could barely move my neck because it was so sore after absorbing all the punches to my noggin. Only had very light headaches. I'm not very good, but I like to trade and spar good people, so you can imagine the rest.

Then, about 4 months ago I had my first severe concussion. Big wakeup call. I wasn't dropped or anything. I guess it's the cumulative damage that did it, but again, it was hard sparring. I couldn't think, I couldn't read or watch any screens and I had a MASSIVE headache for 3 weeks. As it died down, I went back to training and after getting hit with jabs I had severe headaches afterwards. I'm still dealing with the repercussion. I'm skipping sparring untill the new year and working on my defense, hopefully everything is back to normal by then.

I know it's a tough sport and you've got to weed out the guys who can't hack it, but I'm really starting to see why more and more fighters are toning it down in training.

 

[a guy]

That's an interesting thing that I didn't realize until someone made a series of videos of it. Like I didn't even ask for it, he just wanted to. But a guy who fought 3 of my fighters said "everyone you train hits hard as shit. I fought 3 of them and each one hit harder than the one before. The last one felt like he had rocks in his gloves."

So I had Arnor here:



Then Daijon, who is more known for his speed:



Then what's funny is that Paige is one of the ones who hits the mitts the best:



And I don't have any video of him, but my Ugandan fighter Shaun, in his last fight he knocked the guy down and knocked his mouthpiece out 3 times:



They still gave that decision to that other kid, though. LOL Also, for anyone wondering, mitts is NOT how I build their punching power. It's all technique and weight placement, they get to do mitt work AFTER they can punch correctly, not before. So these students are far enough along that they do more mitt work.

It really stands out. You can see a few common things. They all have balance while punching. You don't see them chucking their weight around and losing their footing, everything is grounded and they all have leverage. The weight shifts are subtle, controlled and stable. They all have good posture. There's no slouching, hunching, overly tensed shoulder, they're all in good athletic positions. They all know how to make a fist and hit with good alignment. You don't really see slapping, weak wrists, or bad angles. Your students have good delivery of power through their fists. It all comes together so that they're punching from the ground up and sending all that power straight to the target, even when the punches don't look huge or like there's a lot behind them. Punching like that is one of the reasons I fell in love with boxing in the first place, it's a treat to watch.

 

[Sano]

It really stands out. You can see a few common things. They all have balance while punching. You don't see them chucking their weight around and losing their footing, everything is grounded and they all have leverage. The weight shifts are subtle, controlled and stable. They all have good posture. There's no slouching, hunching, overly tensed shoulder, they're all in good athletic positions. They all know how to make a fist and hit with good alignment. You don't really see slapping, weak wrists, or bad angles. Your students have good delivery of power through their fists. It all comes together so that they're punching from the ground up and sending all that power straight to the target, even when the punches don't look huge or like there's a lot behind them. Punching like that is one of the reasons I fell in love with boxing in the first place, it's a treat to watch.

Yeah I wish I could punch like that. I have a hard time with my right hand. I keep getting too much weight on my lead leg and I don't turn my hip over and is off balance during the punch. Worst thing is that I feel very open after throwing it and keep getting caught in poor position. It's not like I'm throwing myself around either, just happens.

I think I'll practice the step Arni Isaksson does it in the video above. When I played around with it felt like I could keep my weight back more.

 

[Sinister]

Well, worried, perhaps. I see it as being smart about it, just like being smart about the skills and applications you're teaching, to some extent. I must admit I've gotten a new found respect for brain health.

I've taken a lot of hard shots to the face, and it has never bothered me. Frankly, I know it sounds kinda weird, but I like getting hit in the face. There's something exhilarating about it and when I get hit hard it's go time. I've had many days after sparring sessions where I could barely move my neck because it was so sore after absorbing all the punches to my noggin. Only had very light headaches. I'm not very good, but I like to trade and spar good people, so you can imagine the rest.

Then, about 4 months ago I had my first severe concussion. Big wakeup call. I wasn't dropped or anything. I guess it's the cumulative damage that did it, but again, it was hard sparring. I couldn't think, I couldn't read or watch any screens and I had a MASSIVE headache for 3 weeks. As it died down, I went back to training and after getting hit with jabs I had severe headaches afterwards. I'm still dealing with the repercussion. I'm skipping sparring untill the new year and working on my defense, hopefully everything is back to normal by then.

I know it's a tough sport and you've got to weed out the guys who can't hack it, but I'm really starting to see why more and more fighters are toning it down in training.

I see, it's just that the wording of your questions kind of came off like you're asking if we're being negligent. I can assure you, we're not. Our fighters go hard when it's time to go hard, but there's always supervision and there've been very few knockouts or concussions. The last time I had a fighter with an actual concussion was over a year ago. One thing you can note is that in these sessions, you won't see A LOT of neck turning or head snapping. We try to keep our guys well-educated on how to stay in position to receive the punch.

It really stands out. You can see a few common things. They all have balance while punching. You don't see them chucking their weight around and losing their footing, everything is grounded and they all have leverage. The weight shifts are subtle, controlled and stable. They all have good posture. There's no slouching, hunching, overly tensed shoulder, they're all in good athletic positions. They all know how to make a fist and hit with good alignment. You don't really see slapping, weak wrists, or bad angles. Your students have good delivery of power through their fists. It all comes together so that they're punching from the ground up and sending all that power straight to the target, even when the punches don't look huge or like there's a lot behind them. Punching like that is one of the reasons I fell in love with boxing in the first place, it's a treat to watch.

Thanks, yeah it's a testament to education. Not about size or strength, but HOW you punch. Everything else is icing on the form cake.

Yeah I wish I could punch like that. I have a hard time with my right hand. I keep getting too much weight on my lead leg and I don't turn my hip over and is off balance during the punch. Worst thing is that I feel very open after throwing it and keep getting caught in poor position. It's not like I'm throwing myself around either, just happens.

I think I'll practice the step Arni Isaksson does it in the video above. When I played around with it felt like I could keep my weight back more.

IMO no one shouldn't be punching like that. But some would call that self-bias and argue on behalf of different looking punches that are less effective. I am a big opponent of the head moving forward when you throw the rear hand. Billy Briscoe and I had a debate about it, as he asked me outright why I teach an incorrect right hand. I explained the mechanics of my "hard" right, and he still said he felt there should be a shift to the left (then he threw a left hook). I said that's throwing the right to throw the hook. The weight is moving, so it can't be all settled into the punch, but it will be for the left. We throw the right to end things with the right. More stationary, but higher force. He still disagreed, so one of my Amateurs (Loco, who I just bumped a thread about that no one replied to) sparred his Pro Sammy Vargas and I told my guy to throw as many hard lefts as he could. He landed about 10 of them in 2 rounds, and a couple really nice ones. Plus his head was too far back to be countered readily. Sam did slap him around for the next 2 rounds, but he had to work for it.

 

[Sano]

I see, it's just that the wording of your questions kind of came off like you're asking if we're being negligent. I can assure you, we're not. Our fighters go hard when it's time to go hard, but there's always supervision and there've been very few knockouts or concussions. The last time I had a fighter with an actual concussion was over a year ago. One thing you can note is that in these sessions, you won't see A LOT of neck turning or head snapping. We try to keep our guys well-educated on how to stay in position to receive the punch.

IMO no one shouldn't be punching like that. But some would call that self-bias and argue on behalf of different looking punches that are less effective. I am a big opponent of the head moving forward when you throw the rear hand. Billy Briscoe and I had a debate about it, as he asked me outright why I teach an incorrect right hand. I explained the mechanics of my "hard" right, and he still said he felt there should be a shift to the left (then he threw a left hook). I said that's throwing the right to throw the hook. The weight is moving, so it can't be all settled into the punch, but it will be for the left. We throw the right to end things with the right. More stationary, but higher force. He still disagreed, so one of my Amateurs (Loco, who I just bumped a thread about that no one replied to) sparred his Pro Sammy Vargas and I told my guy to throw as many hard lefts as he could. He landed about 10 of them in 2 rounds, and a couple really nice ones. Plus his head was too far back to be countered readily. Sam did slap him around for the next 2 rounds, but he had to work for it.

Yeah I can see how it came off a little accusive, sorry about that. It's just been on my mind lately with my own concussion and all. Now that you mention it, I did actually notice how well your guys are taking the shots, which is pretty impressive given the intensity behind them. That's another thing I wish I knew how to do lol. I try to keep my chin tucked, bend my legs and not tense up when someone is throwing at me, but it's not easy.

About the right hand, I have a feeling that the reason I'm feeling so vulnerable throwing it is because I'm moving while throwing it most of the time and shifting my weight to much to my lead leg. I'm not sure that's it, because many fighters do that and get away with, even if it's not the best way to throw it. I do know that for me personally, when I tried the way you teach, I feel a lot more confident throwing it. More in control.

I hope it's alright I'm posting a video here. It's not a very good example because the guy was giving me too much leeway and it's very light, but it's the only recent one I have. I'm in the blue t-shirt. Do you see what I mean with the right hand? I use it as a lead and sort of a dart sometimes too, but still:

 

[Sinister]

There's two things I see that could be interfering with rotational degree and force. One is your right foot is kept too far back from your right hip. It should be closer to underneath it. Both the Thais, and in Savate, many of the practitioners even if they stand wide habitually, know how to bring the right foot under the right hip in order to execute proper rotation. The second thing is it's sometimes behind the left foot, this makes turning awkward and you have to use the upper-body. Keep the right foot aligned with your right hand. In other words if you point your right hand straight down when in your stance, you should be pointing right at the top of your right foot. And this should be kept at all times. But people lose it when they start moving around.

 

[Sano]

Thanks man. I didn't know exactly why it felt so weird throwing it when moving about. Much appreciated!

 

[Sinister]

You try it out?