What does the may/mac say about the the level of striking in MMA? | Page 5

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by MaxMMA, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. zapataxiv Brown Belt

    zapataxiv
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    yes thats true.
    Really the coach should be teaching a system and have there students progress through the system incorporating the boxing training into it. Kind of like the Ingle system. Learning right execution of techniques and drilling responses, movements etc..
    That takes a really well educated coach with a vision of his finished product and knows how to teach. That is not an everyday thing where can encounter a coach like that.
    Jacksons Gaidojutsu is a precursor like that... They were at the top of MMA for awhile.
     
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  2. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
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    Yeah there's alot of material to cover when it comes to MMA. Even going with the absolute basics, its still alot. Our gym keeps things very basic, but even before getting into MMA, we all have to have fights / competition history in MT and BJJ/grappling. We're usually not allowed to compete in MMA until we have at least 2-3 MT/exibitions, and 2 BJJ tourneys

    Isn't Jackson's still the top gym?
     
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  3. zapataxiv Brown Belt

    zapataxiv
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    when i was into MMA i heard this was the requirement for Jacksons. I trained at an offshoot of Jacksons and they talked about how you had to place in grappling tourneys and do some sort of striking competitions etc..



    i have no idea i don't watch MMA anymore.. (wipes cheeto dust off on pants and dons fedora)
     
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  4. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
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    Its a good requirement imo. My coach in his earlier days saw 1 dimensional guys get wrecked by opposite styles. eg. grappler shutting down big time against good strikers, and pure strikers getting the UFC1 treatment, both sides underestimated the "X-factor" big time, and paid heavily, so since then he had that requirement

    Transition-wise, it is good as well, lots of MMA org. has borderline pro rules (no pay, no elbows) and some guys aren't ready to pull the trigger for no headgear, no shinguards, and 4s


    To be fair I don't know 100% either, I don't focus much on camp rankings, but just others I've heard say they are based on their winning ratios.
     
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  5. zapataxiv Brown Belt

    zapataxiv
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    Yea i heard the same thing from my old coach,about the history of lower level MMA and the development of the amateur scene of the sport.
    Like you said it makes sense, it is just the execution of developing the skills and connecting them. That is a larger problem and requires a system approach to really develop the picture of what a fighter should be doing. At my old gym they had Striking classes and MMA classes which was the class to put all the pieces together. which is a good approach it worked (Carlos Condit taught on of my first classes there and taught me how to apply a key lock).

    What i am talking about though is an entire system approach to fighting that trains specific responses to problems that arise in combat. Watch Herol Graham for example he has answers to moves and anticipates what si coming which is how he fights successfully with his style. That takes a vision by his coach of a finished product. Vs what i saw a lot which is large gyms where the striking was divided up between hitting pads and sparring where one student holds pads, then switch, spar a guy for a round switch, and then do some conditioning. That type of training docent produce the same skill level and will not be able to replicate the mastery that a system approach could do.
     
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  6. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
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    It is really tough though to implement that approach for green fighters. When you look at the average person (inc. ammys) in a combat sport gym, alot of them started late (in their 20s) with no athletic background; Maybe they lifting weights and playing sports recreationally, and thats about it. So for these guys (I started out this way as well), the systematic approach is pretty difficult to implement. Competitors who have been training since adolescence say competitive wrestler are the minority usually. I'd even wager to say dealing with an aggressive winning approach takes time for them to build up. I know because I was like this, and while I've developed immensely since competing, it took time for me to cultivate that mindset.

    Novice fights are definitely very athletically feuled and aggressive, its very common to see little to no technique due to nerves, adrenaline, etc. so coaches want to implenent the most simple and barebones technique and tactics so their fighters will have something to fall on once everything goes out the window. At that stage focusing on something like 1,2, slip, leg kick, pivot out, 1,6 is just too much for them to comprehend.

    When i started competing (MT), the barebones for us was:
    • combinations - 2 combos: 1 as offesne, and 1 as my defense to interupt opponent's own combo. It was basically 1,2,3,kick w/h level change variations
    • retaliate ASAP (ideally with a combo, and never letting more than 3 strikes get on me)
    • press forward for ring control
    • clinching - barebones double collar control, pummelling to get there. Single collar work was a bit advanced since alot of gyms lacked in clinching so it worked well to our advantage
    And we drilled it to death pretty much, 4-6 days a week 3h a day.

    Now if we focused on dealing with alot of scenarios I don't think I'd be able to implement the game plan and probably would shut down. I have personal gravitation to parrying so naturally that came into my game plan aside from the basics I've mentioned. It was good for dealing with kicks for me. It should be noted my first exibition alot went out the window, but the core still remained since thats all we did, and given the limited time put into camp (8-12 weeks) there is only so much I could do to make it instunctual.

    I've noticed a transitional approach with competitors:
    1. Novice - learn to fight, harvest aggression and winning at all cost approach. Little technique is shown. Very brawl-like
    2. Intermediate - build up on novice, but start to get creative, and fighters begin to be able to think cognitively.
    3. Experienced - top of the game, and creativity and multi-stage set ups start to show

    Guys who have been doing combat sports for a long time, but started competing late will probably be able to use the systematic approach better eg. trained for 6-10 years, but started to compete this year. But, we don't know how they will fare once the nerves, adrenaline, dealing with a crowd, will factor. I feel it would be alot easier with an individual style compared to MMA where there is alot of material to cover and more tailored based on their strengths (striker / grappler)

    So while I do like to see a systematic approach built in, I think with a lack of time to make it instinctual, its probably better in the intermediate to later stages.
     
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  7. zapataxiv Brown Belt

    zapataxiv
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    i think you are underestimating the systematic approach.

    with green fighters it is as simple as @Pugilistic said starting with footwork and just moving and then when you have a base you start adding punches.
    the coach should have plenty of drills to do with the student besides just moving around the ring to teach basics of footwork. Starting with this base the fighter learns about distance, stepping, pivoting etc.. without being explicity told why he is doing these things and then you have them incorporate punching with moving essentially teaching them how to shadowbox without telling them that is what you are doing. so with out even realizing it the student is already shadowboxing in a manner that is in line of the coaches vision of what they should be doing in a fight.
    as far as sparring there a plethora of tools to cultivate those skills in the live arena. starting with partner drills, mitt work, and shadowboxing. Further you can start to add pressure by having sparring against high level guys who can help control the intensity and make sure it docent get too crazy, so the younger guy learns how to play the game. Also partner shadowboxing, is a great tool for this watching partnered shadowboxing and giving input sa coach on what fighters can and should be doing and how to react to situations. All of that is putting together the pieces that leads to a fighter being able to cognitively fight to a system. This approach is common in grappling as well it is just more common because grappling is relatively less impact oriented although spazzing and inexperince still leads to a plethora of injuries.

    Your post is not in direct opposition to my point because both still require time and effort to develop but the system approach yields higher quality results and gives the student more tools to develop.

    a little off topic but this is also similar to the old argument you hear on forums "Combat sports will have you beating guys up tomorrow, but with TMA it takes years". Thats not really a true statement while a guy just starting in any combat sport will learn his skill set to the enough ability to hurt somebody relatively quickly it does not mean they are good. Both skillets really do require years of studying, training, contemplating and sweating to really develop the skill to call yourself competent.
     
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  8. rmongler Brown Belt

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    I think ATT is the most successful gym in america right now.
     
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  9. Universal Kombat Blue Belt

    Universal Kombat
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    How does he not fairly rep MMA striking? Because 0-0 guy went in there with 49-0 guy in a different sport and got destroyed?
     
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  10. Paradigm Gold Belt

    Paradigm
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    Conor isn't necessarily the most diverse striker in MMA...not like that would matter in a boxing match though.
     
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  11. Universal Kombat Blue Belt

    Universal Kombat
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    That's my whole point in the first place. How would he be able to rep our striking anyways if he isn't even allowed to strike fully? Nonethless, even if he isn't very diverse, anyone who's been following combat sports knows that with kicking, and kneeing allowed, the fight would be way different.
     
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  12. Paradigm Gold Belt

    Paradigm
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    For sure. Conor dusts him, Canelo, GGG, whomever in a full rules MT fight. But...different sport.

    To be fair, we have no idea how alternate histories would have played out. In some other parallel timeline, Floyd is an all time great in Muay Thai (a la Samart) and yet a corrupt congressman in another.
     
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  13. FutureSergant White Belt

    FutureSergant
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    I think Cody's striking is better than Conors.
     
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  14. Quiz White Belt

    Quiz
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    Conor lacks important boxing fundamentals. Most glaringly, his punching technique is all arms. He does not turn the hips or bring his lower posterior chain into the punches. He is "winging it" and leave a lot of power on the table. Floyd realized this early on: Conor's punches could not hurt him. This is why Floyd felt no worries coming forward the entire fight. This had the added bonus of moving Conor backwards, giving him even less power. If you watch Conor's UFC knockouts, all of his power is generated through forward momentum, not the rotational momentum technique utilized by skilled boxers. Take that away from Conor and he had nothing, which is why Floyd taunted him at the end of the fourth round with "When are you going to show me some power?"

    Other stuff too: hands up, chin down. It should be instinctual. Conor struggles with both fundamentals. Conor had size, age, athleticism, and a much longer reach, but Floyd made easy work of him and showed no concern for either Conor's skill or power.

    Floyd made it an entertaining fight and carried Conor. Conor is a mouth who sells tickets, but anyone in the top 100 of that weight class would have given Floyd a more serious challenge most likely.

    I'm sort of surprised at all the praise Conor has been getting for his boxing. I guess it's what happens when people have low expectations. Conor is a tremendous athlete and probably could learn to box if he hired some proper trainers and worked on conditioning, technique, and fundamentals.
     
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