Watered Down Martial Arts

[JohnPJones]

Bruce Lee is rightly regarded as mainly an MMA pioneer.
That said, there is nothing mundane about his discipline, level of dedication and overall commitment to martial excellence by any standard even today. The guy trained like a demon on top of an acting career and that is not a myth even if there are more guys following a similar regime these days.

View attachment 1017477

Of course you showed up to suck Bruce Lee’s dick and try to derail the conversation

 

[DoctorTaco]

Of course you showed up to suck Bruce Lee’s dick and try to derail the conversation

Taxes, death, and jkd dorks worshipping a Hollywood actor. Is normal.

 

[TheMaster]

Of course you showed up to suck Bruce Lee’s dick and try to derail the conversation

The only cocksucker here is you, unappreciative of those who paved the way before which is part of the discussion. But we knew that about you already.

Why don't you outline some of Bruce Lee's 'mundane' training regimen?

 

[Choco]

Look at Bruce lee, he’s regarded as basically a martial arts/fitness god

Only by idiots. Bruce Lee was an innovator (Out of many, of equal or more importance) and a divulgator, but basically was a movie star.

 

[TheMaster]

Bruce Lee was an innovator (Out of many, of equal or more importance) and a divulgator, but basically was a movie star.

Movie star he was but his training was by no means 'mundane' by any standard. He was a legit martial artist and movie star equally.

 

[WDSTK]

There's actually quite a few reasons. Rule changes limiting certain techniques or aspects of the art in favor of "action" or certain styles. BJJ would look different if they didn't reward butt scoopers. In judo there is controversy because they keep limiting what kind of throws are allowed to favor certain styles, meaning over time, these techniques would be lost since most judo schools will focus on winning competitions and train around the rules. Boxing would look different if they actually let fighters work in the clinch and penalized bad defense. In boxing the measurable metric is that fights are shorter than in the past so in terms of conditioning, we could assume fighters in the past were actually better. But of course in fighting, it's hard to measure things with hard stats. The only thing you can go by is watching fights.

There is an incredible article about boxing history and evolution of technique that I read a while back. It talks about why boxing technique deteriorated over time compared to the past. If I can find it I'll post it here.

Jack Dempsey in his 1950s book thought boxing had deteriorated since his boxing days in the early 1900s and had gone from fighting to a sport. He then went into his training advice on the science of boxing. When I discussed his book with my trainer, he laughed and said Dempsey was mainly a brawler and did not demonstrate the science of boxing as much as he claimed in his book that he wrote 30 years after his professional boxing career. Anyway his explanation and terms he used how to box was funny and interesting. However I cannot see him having much chance with the size of heavyweights who competed after him.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Only by idiots. Bruce Lee was an innovator (Out of many, of equal or more importance) and a divulgator, but basically was a movie star.

He was the world’s first fitness influencer. He would be a tik tok star today

 

[Hotora86]

I didn't know where post this but I figure this may be the best subforum for this.

My question is: Do martial arts in general get watered down over time?

I'm more of a boxing fan and I am convinced that boxers now are not as good as boxers from the past. Guys from the 50s and 60s and even more recent like the era of Duran, Sugar Ray, etc. would wipe the floor with current best boxers. Infighting seems to be lost art since refs now barely allow fighters to work on the clinch. Boxers back in the day also seemed be much more defensively slick. Refs don't penalize fighters for ducking below the waist or turning away from their opponent (and inadvertently get hit in the back of the head).

But this doesn't seem to be just a boxing issue. I'm not as knowledgeable of other martial arts but it's something I hear about judo as well. Apparently a problem in judo is that there are constant rule changes to prohibit certain moves to favor a certain style of judo, and as a result, techniques are being lost.

Perhaps same goes for BJJ, where competitors can abuse the butt scoot and perhaps other ways to use the rules to their advantage, but such approaches may not be useful in a "real fight" which defeats the purpose of why bjj was developed in the first place.

I believe the same may apply for Muay Thai. I'm not a muay thai expert, but when I watch footage of older mt fighter vs current ones, the fighters back in day looked more slick. And this is perhaps is why Thailand had more successful fighters crossing over into boxing in the past. When I watch One fights, it's exciting because the rules favor action, but I don't like that they basically takes away clinch fighting, which is one of the best things about Muay Thai in my opinion. Will muay thai lose it's clinch fighting techniques over time to cater to fan friendly fights?

I can say the same for the UFC. Back in the day I much preferred Pride over the UFC because Pride rules allowed for more flexibility. Not just more action because of head stomps and knees on the ground were allowed, but they let ground fighters work for longer before standing them back up.

It seems most martial arts over time change the rules for a mixture of catering to fans, safety, and perhaps politics, and as a result get watered down as competitors abuse the rules and the style changes around them which also leads to techniques being lost.

Do all martial arts get watered down over time to cater to a larger population of both practitioners and fans?

I can comment on Karate which I trained the most, various styles.

Karate is definitely watered down compared to what it used to be. At its birth in Okinawa it was a complete system with throws, trips, locks, punches, kicks, elbows, knees etc and a very civilian self-defense / practical approach, constantly enhanced and developed by mixing with various styles of Kung Fu and nearby practiced martial arts. Arguably, Karate was the MMA of its time, perhaps with a Krav Maga mindset.

After its introduction in Japan Karate changed in many ways:
- dropped the grappling part (tegumi) since Japan already had Jujutsu/Judo for that
- dropped 'hojo undo', which is weight training and body conditioning
- borrowed the Judo uniform and belt system
- adapted for training large groups of ppl via kihon (as opposed to 2 person drills)
- simplified kata for beginners
- put more focus on performing kata rather than bunkai (application)
- added more flashy kicks
- split into many different styles
- as many modern Japanese arts embraced the "way of life" (do) approach as opposed to fighting skill

Arguably, all of the above made Karate easier to popularize but at the same time diluted the practical aspects. Those got diluted even more when Americans practiced just 1-2 years under masters in Okinawa and made a whole new style out of that after coming back to the US.

What we have today, especially in the "Olympic Karate" WKF, is so vastly different from the original Okinawan art it is barely recognizable. Some styles went on to "reinvent" the mixed martial art nature of Okinawan Karate (eg Kudo, Shidokan) but those are less popular than the major styles like point-sparring Shotokan. Kyokushin went a completely different route by keeping the hard body conditioning but banning head punches - which is good and bad at the same time.

As for any martial art which got accepted into the Olympics - those got watered down due to the Olympic committee's constant rule changes. In Judo, leg grabs are no longer allowed (which is ridiculous). In TKD face punches are no longer allowed (which is even more ridiculous) and body punches score low and basically aren't used. If MMA ever becomes an Olympic sport (god forbid) it will be severely watered down IMO.

 

[surfer dude]

Well stated @Hotora86

That's about as succinctly as the long transition of karate becoming the T-ball of the martial arts can be written. I hold a sandan in Shotokan and my experience has been that 90% of practitioners are LARPers. Many of whom are on the wrong side of the Dunning-Kruger curve. The other 10% crosstrain and have a contact or combat sports background. We are the ones forcing jutsu back into karate.

If they are going to keep emphasising pajama dancing, kihon kumite, and all of the other crap that amounts to folk dancing? Then Kiddy Krotty Kare is what the 3 Ks should stand for. Of the dojos and seminars I've attended in the Central Florida area, none have ever done jiyu kumite while I was in attendance. How the hell am I at your seminar Friday night, and all day Saturday and Sunday, or at your dojo for hours, and I didn't mix it up with a single one of you? Only way I ever sparred with any of them is when they visited our dojo to train. "Forgot" your gear eh? No worries we have plenty.

 

[noc]

I didn't know where post this but I figure this may be the best subforum for this.

My question is: Do martial arts in general get watered down over time?

I'm more of a boxing fan and I am convinced that boxers now are not as good as boxers from the past. Guys from the 50s and 60s and even more recent like the era of Duran, Sugar Ray, etc. would wipe the floor with current best boxers. Infighting seems to be lost art since refs now barely allow fighters to work on the clinch. Boxers back in the day also seemed be much more defensively slick. Refs don't penalize fighters for ducking below the waist or turning away from their opponent (and inadvertently get hit in the back of the head).

But this doesn't seem to be just a boxing issue. I'm not as knowledgeable of other martial arts but it's something I hear about judo as well. Apparently a problem in judo is that there are constant rule changes to prohibit certain moves to favor a certain style of judo, and as a result, techniques are being lost.

Perhaps same goes for BJJ, where competitors can abuse the butt scoot and perhaps other ways to use the rules to their advantage, but such approaches may not be useful in a "real fight" which defeats the purpose of why bjj was developed in the first place.

I believe the same may apply for Muay Thai. I'm not a muay thai expert, but when I watch footage of older mt fighter vs current ones, the fighters back in day looked more slick. And this is perhaps is why Thailand had more successful fighters crossing over into boxing in the past. When I watch One fights, it's exciting because the rules favor action, but I don't like that they basically takes away clinch fighting, which is one of the best things about Muay Thai in my opinion. Will muay thai lose it's clinch fighting techniques over time to cater to fan friendly fights?

I can say the same for the UFC. Back in the day I much preferred Pride over the UFC because Pride rules allowed for more flexibility. Not just more action because of head stomps and knees on the ground were allowed, but they let ground fighters work for longer before standing them back up.

It seems most martial arts over time change the rules for a mixture of catering to fans, safety, and perhaps politics, and as a result get watered down as competitors abuse the rules and the style changes around them which also leads to techniques being lost.

Do all martial arts get watered down over time to cater to a larger population of both practitioners and fans?

A problem in MuayThai is what you like.. the clinch lol in Thailand just bettors are fan of that

The technique in Boxing today is not as good as the 80s and before

TKD rules have watered down that style.. in Karate there was a change but hasn't made the same damage, they should be confident in utilize their tournament style in Kickboxing rules

MMA is very young still

 

[TheMaster]

I can comment on Karate which I trained the most, various styles.

Karate is definitely watered down compared to what it used to be. At its birth in Okinawa it was a complete system with throws, trips, locks, punches, kicks, elbows, knees etc and a very civilian self-defense / practical approach, constantly enhanced and developed by mixing with various styles of Kung Fu and nearby practiced martial arts. Arguably, Karate was the MMA of its time, perhaps with a Krav Maga mindset.

After its introduction in Japan Karate changed in many ways:
- dropped the grappling part (tegumi) since Japan already had Jujutsu/Judo for that
- dropped 'hojo undo', which is weight training and body conditioning
- borrowed the Judo uniform and belt system
- adapted for training large groups of ppl via kihon (as opposed to 2 person drills)
- simplified kata for beginners
- put more focus on performing kata rather than bunkai (application)
- added more flashy kicks
- split into many different styles
- as many modern Japanese arts embraced the "way of life" (do) approach as opposed to fighting skill

Arguably, all of the above made Karate easier to popularize but at the same time diluted the practical aspects. Those got diluted even more when Americans practiced just 1-2 years under masters in Okinawa and made a whole new style out of that after coming back to the US.

What we have today, especially in the "Olympic Karate" WKF, is so vastly different from the original Okinawan art it is barely recognizable. Some styles went on to "reinvent" the mixed martial art nature of Okinawan Karate (eg Kudo, Shidokan) but those are less popular than the major styles like point-sparring Shotokan. Kyokushin went a completely different route by keeping the hard body conditioning but banning head punches - which is good and bad at the same time.

As for any martial art which got accepted into the Olympics - those got watered down due to the Olympic committee's constant rule changes. In Judo, leg grabs are no longer allowed (which is ridiculous). In TKD face punches are no longer allowed (which is even more ridiculous) and body punches score low and basically aren't used. If MMA ever becomes an Olympic sport (god forbid) it will be severely watered down IMO.

This is a great post.
So many morons today think that traditional martial arts 'wasn't real'...until it became a show in Las Vegas with multiple combat sport styles mixing together in unified rules.

It's some kind of ego propping up self delusion on an epic scale to think that. Most guys couldn't hack alot of the basic hard-core conditioning alone that they used to do, hours of punching the makiwara, relentless knuckle pushups and chopping blocks of wood and kicking trees.

Tell me, will you train harder if you are doing it as a hobby or for recreation, or if your life could depend on it like in the old days?

Modern MMA essentially derives from Judo, boxing/kickboxing and amateur wrestling, all styles that were themselves heavily watered down to make them more easily practicable as sports and for the masses.

 

[JohnPJones]

Only by idiots. Bruce Lee was an innovator (Out of many, of equal or more importance) and a divulgator, but basically was a movie star.

Most people are idiots, so that’s not much of a caveat

 

[noc]

Only by idiots. Bruce Lee was an innovator (Out of many, of equal or more importance) and a divulgator, but basically was a movie star.

Why so aggressive man? lol
Who are those many of equal or more importance?
"but basically a movie star".. just ignorant people would say that

 

[Choco]

Why so aggressive man? lol
Who are those many of equal or more importance?

On the top of my head, XX century only. Oyama, Adriano Emperado, Byung Jik Ro, Satoru Sayama, Kenji Kurosaki, Vasili Oshchepkov, Kazuyoshi Ishii, Jon Bluming, Chōjun Miyagi, Carlos, Carlson and Rolls Gracie, Kenichi Sawai, Robert Trias, Azuma Takashi...

"but basically a movie star".. just ignorant people would say that

There is nothing wrong about being a movie star. Thanks to Lee, Martial Arts movies moved from being a super-niche lowbrow Honkonese pastime to worldwide attention, in some case with high budgets and high production quality. On top of that he gained a huge platform to present his teaching to the world. He pursued stardom relentlessly and is his most unquestionable legacy.

 

[Hotora86]

On the top of my head, XX century only. Oyama, Adriano Emperado, Byung Jik Ro, Satoru Sayama, Kenji Kurosaki, Vasili Oshchepkov, Kazuyoshi Ishii, Jon Bluming, Chōjun Miyagi, Carlos, Carlson and Rolls Gracie, Kenichi Sawai, Robert Trias, Azuma Takashi...

There is nothing wrong about being a movie star. Thanks to Lee, Martial Arts movies moved from being a super-niche lowbrow Honkonese pastime to worldwide attention, in some case with high budgets and high production quality. On top of that he gained a huge platform to present his teaching to the world. He pursued stardom relentlessly and is his most unquestionable legacy.

Good post.

Add to the list Viktor Spiridonov and Anatoly Kharlampiev who co-founded Sambo which was officially recognized in 1938, more than 50 years before UFC was conceived.

And of course don't forget about Edward William Barton-Wright who invented his own mixed martial art waaaaay back in 1898!!

 

[noc]

On the top of my head, XX century only. Oyama, Adriano Emperado, Byung Jik Ro, Satoru Sayama, Kenji Kurosaki, Vasili Oshchepkov, Kazuyoshi Ishii, Jon Bluming, Chōjun Miyagi, Carlos, Carlson and Rolls Gracie, Kenichi Sawai, Robert Trias, Azuma Takashi...

There is nothing wrong about being a movie star. Thanks to Lee, Martial Arts movies moved from being a super-niche lowbrow Honkonese pastime to worldwide attention, in some case with high budgets and high production quality. On top of that he gained a huge platform to present his teaching to the world. He pursued stardom relentlessly and is his most unquestionable legacy.

Why they are "innovators of equal or more importance"?

Thanks to Lee senseis and masters teached to millions
He was not just a movie star, he teached martial arts, he wrote books about it, and wrote on a martial art magazine, he accepted challenges, he studied and developed the fighting art further

 

[Patrick Jane]

You know what's really watered down? When martial arts artificially introduce shitty applications of parts of other martial arts.

 

[JohnPJones]

I

Why they are "innovators of equal or more importance"?

Thanks to Lee senseis and masters teached to millions
He was not just a movie star, he teached martial arts, he wrote books about it, and wrote on a martial art magazine, he accepted challenges, he studied and developed the fighting art further

great he wrote an article for a magazine…that’s one hell of an accolade…did he write books? I’m pretty sure the only book he’s listed as an author on was just his notes that his wife turned into a book and published after his death…

But no one is really denying or arguing any of that…because none of that actually means anything. There are tons of people who have written articles for MA magazines, there are tons of people who have written MA books, and tons of people who have taught.
Lee’s only claim to fame is being a movie star.
Without that he’d have just been another nobody Chinese kung fu guy.

As for challenges there’s only 2 that can be confirmed as actually happening as far as I’m aware.
The outcome of both disputed by the other people involved, but in one case the only witness not a friend or relative of Lee’s tells a story that makes him look like a douche and a coward.

But good job derailing yet another thread because you have an irresistible urge to defend the ‘honor’ of a dead man, who wouldn’t give a shit about you even if he was alive.

 

[noc]

I

great he wrote an article for a magazine…that’s one hell of an accolade…did he write books? I’m pretty sure the only book he’s listed as an author on was just his notes that his wife turned into a book and published after his death…

But no one is really denying or arguing any of that…because none of that actually means anything. There are tons of people who have written articles for MA magazines, there are tons of people who have written MA books, and tons of people who have taught.
Lee’s only claim to fame is being a movie star.
Without that he’d have just been another nobody Chinese kung fu guy.

As for challenges there’s only 2 that can be confirmed as actually happening as far as I’m aware.
The outcome of both disputed by the other people involved, but in one case the only witness not a friend or relative of Lee’s tells a story that makes him look like a douche and a coward.

But good job derailing yet another thread because you have an irresistible urge to defend the ‘honor’ of a dead man, who wouldn’t give a shit about you even if he was alive.

Is not about accolades.. or if only him did that, is about he was not just a movie star, thats a FACT. It wasnt just one article
Understand what we were discussing

He wrote one book about Kung Fu, another about WingChung but he gave the ownership to a friend. He almost wrote another about JKD, but just took photos for it. What u r refering is the Tao..

lol at another nobody Kung Fu guy withouth the movies... you dont know nothing about him dork, masters with less charisma than him are well known in the martial arts world.. u cant know what he could have achieved

No, there are more challenges, but that was not thw discussion. lol yeah believe the excuses of the loser of the fight. Idk about what witness u r refering to.. and i dont care about that bs

Im not defeding his honor, is just that you guys are very IGNORANT, this is a forum.. of course i have to correct ignorant people learn something