Watered Down Martial Arts

[Tuvatuva]

I didn't know where post this but I figure this may be the best subforum for this.

My question is: Do martial arts in general get watered down over time?

I'm more of a boxing fan and I am convinced that boxers now are not as good as boxers from the past. Guys from the 50s and 60s and even more recent like the era of Duran, Sugar Ray, etc. would wipe the floor with current best boxers. Infighting seems to be lost art since refs now barely allow fighters to work on the clinch. Boxers back in the day also seemed be much more defensively slick. Refs don't penalize fighters for ducking below the waist or turning away from their opponent (and inadvertently get hit in the back of the head).

But this doesn't seem to be just a boxing issue. I'm not as knowledgeable of other martial arts but it's something I hear about judo as well. Apparently a problem in judo is that there are constant rule changes to prohibit certain moves to favor a certain style of judo, and as a result, techniques are being lost.

Perhaps same goes for BJJ, where competitors can abuse the butt scoot and perhaps other ways to use the rules to their advantage, but such approaches may not be useful in a "real fight" which defeats the purpose of why bjj was developed in the first place.

I believe the same may apply for Muay Thai. I'm not a muay thai expert, but when I watch footage of older mt fighter vs current ones, the fighters back in day looked more slick. And this is perhaps is why Thailand had more successful fighters crossing over into boxing in the past. When I watch One fights, it's exciting because the rules favor action, but I don't like that they basically takes away clinch fighting, which is one of the best things about Muay Thai in my opinion. Will muay thai lose it's clinch fighting techniques over time to cater to fan friendly fights?

I can say the same for the UFC. Back in the day I much preferred Pride over the UFC because Pride rules allowed for more flexibility. Not just more action because of head stomps and knees on the ground were allowed, but they let ground fighters work for longer before standing them back up.

It seems most martial arts over time change the rules for a mixture of catering to fans, safety, and perhaps politics, and as a result get watered down as competitors abuse the rules and the style changes around them which also leads to techniques being lost.

Do all martial arts get watered down over time to cater to a larger population of both practitioners and fans?

 

[DoctorTaco]

Yes, and no. I don’t think of it like changing, I think it’s more like evolution. These sports evolve past the point of being recognizable compared to their roots.

That begin said, I personally believe the opposite of what you’re saying when it comes to boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai and mma. I think the fighters today mop the floor with the fighters of early era’s. the physicality in today’s athletes alone would make them a handful for anyone 100 years ago.

 

[Cole train]

Fighters get better over time since training develops

That being said early days of mma for example had way more charisma and vibe imo

pride ftw

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yes, and no. I don’t think of it like changing, I think it’s more like evolution. These sports evolve past the point of being recognizable compared to their roots.

That begin said, I personally believe the opposite of what you’re saying when it comes to boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai and mma. I think the fighters today mop the floor with the fighters of early era’s. the physicality in today’s athletes alone would make them a handful for anyone 100 years ago.

I am sorry to say this but you are completely wrong about MT. Golden era (80-90s) had much better fighters and a bunch if legends.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I am sorry to say this but you are completely wrong about MT. Golden era (80-90s) had much better fighters and a bunch if legends.

Of all my combat sports knowledge, Muay Thai is probably my shallowest. I should invest in watching some more golden era fights. I just really dig the athletic, violent style of modern nak muays.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Of all my combat sports knowledge, Muay Thai is probably my shallowest. I should invest in watching some more golden era fights. I just really dig the athletic, violent style of modern nak muays.

Bro then I recommend MT scholar on YT. He has a BUNCH of highlights from golden era. You will be surprised the level of violence, skills and physicality some of these guys have.

 

[Van Daz]

 

[DoctorTaco]

Bro then I recommend MT scholar on YT. He has a BUNCH of highlights from golden era. You will be surprised the level of violence, skills and physicality some of these guys have.

Always heard about the mt scholar but never checked him out. I absolutely will

 

[aerius]

Of all my combat sports knowledge, Muay Thai is probably my shallowest. I should invest in watching some more golden era fights. I just really dig the athletic, violent style of modern nak muays.

Dude, you have idea what you're missing!
There's a reason it's called the golden age, you won't see anyone today with this kind of skill level, not even Saenchai.

Action picks up a bit after the 2:00 mark, once Oley decides he doesn't want to get hit, he doesn't, and the dump he pulls off in the 4th round is just total humiliation.

 

[Tuvatuva]

Yes, and no. I don’t think of it like changing, I think it’s more like evolution. These sports evolve past the point of being recognizable compared to their roots.

That begin said, I personally believe the opposite of what you’re saying when it comes to boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai and mma. I think the fighters today mop the floor with the fighters of early era’s. the physicality in today’s athletes alone would make them a handful for anyone 100 years ago.

I think MMA fighters now are better in the sense that the sport has been refined (and has a bigger talent pool as it's grown) but it has a relatively short history and there is still a lot of experimenting to be done. Gone are the days when a guy with submissions and a basic take down can beat everyone. Let's see what happens in the future. I say bring back Pride rules.

With boxing I definitely disagree. Physicality only applies to heavyweights since modern HWs are bigger than in the past, but fighters back in the day were allowed to be much more physical. Duran would maul the majority of the top guys on the inside if he came back in his prime today assuming the refs would actually let him work. Not to mention fights used to be longer back then and guys would fight hard until the end, but we now have top guys who visibly slow down in the later rounds of shorter fights even with modern conditioning training. The skill level was higher back then and that's what matters more. Boxers now are much simplistic in their approach compared to the layered skills of even fighters like Benton for example.

There's an idea that training now is better and that may be true in advances in exercise science and nutrition, but that doesn't matter when the skills are lost.

Dude, you have idea what you're missing!
There's a reason it's called the golden age, you won't see anyone today with this kind of skill level, not even Saenchai.

Why do you think this is? What happened to Muay Thai? You'd think it would get better with more non-Thais training, meaning access to a more global talent pool.

 

[aerius]

Why do you think this is? What happened to Muay Thai? You'd think it would get better with more non-Thais training, meaning access to a more global talent pool.

Ask 5 people what happened and you'll get a dozen different answers, personally I think it's a combination of many different factors. The rules have changed, judging & scoring is different, popularity isn't what it was back then, and of course there's the gambling influence. The current system favours kicking then clinching to stall as the way to win, unfortunately this is also a fairly low skill style, it's similar to how strong wrestlers with a bit of basic boxing were very successful in MMA for quite a while. Not exactly fun to watch, but it works so everyone starts training & fighting that way.

Also, a bigger talent pool means nothing if there's not enough high level coaches & trainers around to teach the fighters all the skills needed to get good, and I believe this is a much bigger problem than most people think. For instance, I live in a country of 38 million people, there's no one who can teach advanced level clinch work since the knowledge simply doesn't exist, no one here has ever been trained in those skills as a fighter or coached a fighter in that area. Even in Thailand, many or most of the golden age trainers & coaches are gone so there's not as many around who can train a fighter all the way up to the skill levels of old.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Also, a bigger talent pool means nothing if there's not enough high level coaches & trainers around to teach the fighters all the skills needed to get good, and I believe this is a much bigger problem than most people think

He can be a divisive figure in theUS Muay Thai community, but I believe coach K at CSA has done more to address this problem than anyone else. His coaches clinics amount to him and some really elite guest trainers leveling up the knowledge and skills of hundreds of coaches from around the US every year.

 

[TheMaster]

There is no doubt that training methodologies evolve over time, and this often corresponds to more fighters having improved skills. The reverse can also happen though I think like with the example of loss of infighting in boxing.
Bottom line is people were generally tougher back then and lived tougher lives with less comforts. This was conducive to developing more disciplined and stoic approach to training that took them to a level that is less common nowadays.
Look at the level of toughness of a recent boxing HW world title challenger Daniel Dubois, and tell me he would have lasted more than a few rounds against any top 15 HW boxer from the 90's, 80's or 70's or ever made it to title contention.

This holds true for training in Traditional arts also.
Nowadays it's commercial, alot of people train for a workout and socialising and just doing the minimum. Then you have people advancing in grades just for attendance in some schools with is total bs. In short, yes martial arts definitely gets watered down over time as a general trend.

 

[aerius]

He can be a divisive figure in theUS Muay Thai community, but I believe coach K at CSA has done more to address this problem than anyone else. His coaches clinics amount to him and some really elite guest trainers leveling up the knowledge and skills of hundreds of coaches from around the US every year.

I've heard a bit about what he's been doing and I think it's a good start, it's hard to have good fighters without good coaches. However, there's still a long, long way to go.

For instance, let's look at this clip of Arjan Pipa Jockygym (trained Saenchai plus a bunch of golden age fighters) showing Sylvie some of his techniques. It's only a 7 minutes or so, but I bet there's several things which you've never seen before and you just learned something new. Coach's seminars & guest trainers help in getting knowledge out to everyone, but nothing beats decades of hands on experience in training champions. To get to a really high level we need a lot of good, smart coaches & trainers, a lot of fighters and a healthy competitive scene at all levels, and everyone in the sport teaching everything they know to the next generation. We need lots of folks like Pipa to get the next generation of coaches & fighters up to speed, then those folks need to continue building on the foundation and developing their skills.

 

[Tuvatuva]

I've heard a bit about what he's been doing and I think it's a good start, it's hard to have good fighters without good coaches. However, there's still a long, long way to go.

For instance, let's look at this clip of Arjan Pipa Jockygym (trained Saenchai plus a bunch of golden age fighters) showing Sylvie some of his techniques. It's only a 7 minutes or so, but I bet there's several things which you've never seen before and you just learned something new. Coach's seminars & guest trainers help in getting knowledge out to everyone, but nothing beats decades of hands on experience in training champions. To get to a really high level we need a lot of good, smart coaches & trainers, a lot of fighters and a healthy competitive scene at all levels, and everyone in the sport teaching everything they know to the next generation. We need lots of folks like Pipa to get the next generation of coaches & fighters up to speed, then those folks need to continue building on the foundation and developing their skills.

Interesting stuff! He looks a bit different the way he moves and holds the pads from the way I've seen most trainers in Thailand. Granted I'm a MT noob and only tried a few different gyms, I haven't seen anyone hold the pads like this guy.

 

[shockwave kicker]

I didn't know where post this but I figure this may be the best subforum for this.

My question is: Do martial arts in general get watered down over time?

I'm more of a boxing fan and I am convinced that boxers now are not as good as boxers from the past. Guys from the 50s and 60s and even more recent like the era of Duran, Sugar Ray, etc. would wipe the floor with current best boxers. Infighting seems to be lost art since refs now barely allow fighters to work on the clinch. Boxers back in the day also seemed be much more defensively slick. Refs don't penalize fighters for ducking below the waist or turning away from their opponent (and inadvertently get hit in the back of the head).

But this doesn't seem to be just a boxing issue. I'm not as knowledgeable of other martial arts but it's something I hear about judo as well. Apparently a problem in judo is that there are constant rule changes to prohibit certain moves to favor a certain style of judo, and as a result, techniques are being lost.

Perhaps same goes for BJJ, where competitors can abuse the butt scoot and perhaps other ways to use the rules to their advantage, but such approaches may not be useful in a "real fight" which defeats the purpose of why bjj was developed in the first place.

I believe the same may apply for Muay Thai. I'm not a muay thai expert, but when I watch footage of older mt fighter vs current ones, the fighters back in day looked more slick. And this is perhaps is why Thailand had more successful fighters crossing over into boxing in the past. When I watch One fights, it's exciting because the rules favor action, but I don't like that they basically takes away clinch fighting, which is one of the best things about Muay Thai in my opinion. Will muay thai lose it's clinch fighting techniques over time to cater to fan friendly fights?

I can say the same for the UFC. Back in the day I much preferred Pride over the UFC because Pride rules allowed for more flexibility. Not just more action because of head stomps and knees on the ground were allowed, but they let ground fighters work for longer before standing them back up.

It seems most martial arts over time change the rules for a mixture of catering to fans, safety, and perhaps politics, and as a result get watered down as competitors abuse the rules and the style changes around them which also leads to techniques being lost.

Do all martial arts get watered down over time to cater to a larger population of both practitioners and fans?

The only fabric of martial arts that evolves in a positive direction is the UFC. The traditional martial arts keep getting more flashy and less fight oriented as time passes by.

 

[JohnPJones]

Yes, and no. I don’t think of it like changing, I think it’s more like evolution. These sports evolve past the point of being recognizable compared to their roots.

That begin said, I personally believe the opposite of what you’re saying when it comes to boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai and mma. I think the fighters today mop the floor with the fighters of early era’s. the physicality in today’s athletes alone would make them a handful for anyone 100 years ago.

Right? Like every sport consistently get newer bigger records set every few years. Like today’s average college 1st string player is probably equal to the average 1st string NFL player from the 70s

Same for things like track, and swimming.

It’s much harder to see that sort of growth in combat sports but there’s no reason to believe combat sports are exempt from this phenomenon.

 

[Tuvatuva]

Right? Like every sport consistently get newer bigger records set every few years. Like today’s average college 1st string player is probably equal to the average 1st string NFL player from the 70s

Same for things like track, and swimming.

It’s much harder to see that sort of growth in combat sports but there’s no reason to believe combat sports are exempt from this phenomenon.

There's actually quite a few reasons. Rule changes limiting certain techniques or aspects of the art in favor of "action" or certain styles. BJJ would look different if they didn't reward butt scoopers. In judo there is controversy because they keep limiting what kind of throws are allowed to favor certain styles, meaning over time, these techniques would be lost since most judo schools will focus on winning competitions and train around the rules. Boxing would look different if they actually let fighters work in the clinch and penalized bad defense. In boxing the measurable metric is that fights are shorter than in the past so in terms of conditioning, we could assume fighters in the past were actually better. But of course in fighting, it's hard to measure things with hard stats. The only thing you can go by is watching fights.

There is an incredible article about boxing history and evolution of technique that I read a while back. It talks about why boxing technique deteriorated over time compared to the past. If I can find it I'll post it here.

 

[JohnPJones]

There's actually quite a few reasons. Rule changes limiting certain techniques or aspects of the art in favor of "action" or certain styles. BJJ would look different if they didn't reward butt scoopers. In judo there is controversy because they keep limiting what kind of throws are allowed to favor certain styles, meaning over time, these techniques would be lost since most judo schools will focus on winning competitions and train around the rules. Boxing would look different if they actually let fighters work in the clinch and penalized bad defense. In boxing the measurable metric is that fights are shorter than in the past so in terms of conditioning, we could assume fighters in the past were actually better. But of course in fighting, it's hard to measure things with hard stats. The only thing you can go by is watching fights.

There is an incredible article about boxing history and evolution of technique that I read a while back. It talks about why boxing technique deteriorated over time compared to the past. If I can find it I'll post it here.

And the rules of other sports change as well.
I can think of at least 3 major rule changes to football in my memory. Changing the rules of a game changes the meta sure, but it doesn’t change the fact that athletes get better every generation because they and their coaches managed to learn from those who came before.

Look at Bruce lee, he’s regarded as basically a martial arts/fitness god, but his physical feats are pretty mundane by today’s standards.

 

[TheMaster]

Look at Bruce lee, he’s regarded as basically a martial arts/fitness god, but his physical feats are pretty mundane by today’s standards.

Bruce Lee is rightly regarded as mainly an MMA pioneer.
That said, there is nothing mundane about his discipline, level of dedication and overall commitment to martial excellence by any standard even today. The guy trained like a demon on top of an acting career and that is not a myth even if there are more guys following a similar regime these days.