Was Jack Dempsey "a joke"?

[Cross_Trainer]

It's freaky how much the colorizing process makes it like a trip backward through time. After watching Dempsey on grainy black and white footage, it's jarring to see him as a flesh and blood person, walking down streets you can imagine yourself stepping onto.

As far as Dempsey being inferior to today's fighters, a couple points in his defense. First, I remember reading somewhere that the number of boxing gyms in the US was massively larger in Dempsey's day compared to today, which means that he climbed up a much slipperier pole than modern contenders. Second, his book on boxing is still in print. It has primitive features, but fighters still consult it for tips in power punching. So the guy clearly knew something.

 

[mozfonky]

It's freaky how much the colorizing process makes it like a trip backward through time. After watching Dempsey on grainy black and white footage, it's jarring to see him as a flesh and blood person, walking down streets you can imagine yourself stepping onto.

As far as Dempsey being inferior to today's fighters, a couple points in his defense. First, I remember reading somewhere that the number of boxing gyms in the US was massively larger in Dempsey's day compared to today, which means that he climbed up a much slipperier pole than modern contenders. Second, his book on boxing is still in print. It has primitive features, but fighters still consult it for tips in power punching. So the guy clearly knew something.

his book is the best i've seen on the sport, a lot of thought went into it, it was like a dancer would analyze his craft rather than an athlete, in other words, as a creative person, an artist. How he describes how he wrote down his thoughts sounds like a creative too. He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his contributions.

 

[mozfonky]

Nice analogy with Vai and Jimi. I will say also, that just because it's technically better, doesn't mean it sounds better (and that may be what is being insinuated when he said "invented"). Vai is a better player but he isn't better is how I think it to myself, though it may not make sense. To circle back to fighting, some guys are better, or should be better in a head to head, but aren't when they actually fight. Dempsey and other guys that could work a pace and be so thoroughly unfazed simply found another gear when the fight happened. So, even if Ezzard was technically better, he was never going to beat Rocky.

Nice post.

thanks. Also, when one facet is pointed to, like jimi's playing, it naturally excludes the other things that made him great, the feel that he put into it, his artistry, his compositional abilities, etc.., etc.., just like fighters, it's usually a helluva lot more than some of their attributes that gets them where they are.

 

[Cross_Trainer]

his book is the best i've seen on the sport, a lot of thought went into it, it was like a dancer would analyze his craft rather than an athlete, in other words, as a creative person, an artist. How he describes how he wrote down his thoughts sounds like a creative too. He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his contributions.

Yeah, Dempsey could convey his points in a unique style, which made you see things differently. From the bits I read of his manual when I was younger, he could pick the perfect way to compress a principle into simple terms -- to make you think in boxingese. I remember thinking a couple times, "Oh, *that's* how it works."

If I recall correctly, he managed Max Baer, so I assume the guy had coaching experience that helped him develop that teaching style.

 

[wilddeuces]

Yeah, Dempsey could convey his points in a unique style, which made you see things differently. From the bits I read of his manual when I was younger, he could pick the perfect way to compress a principle into simple terms -- to make you think in boxingese. I remember thinking a couple times, "Oh, *that's* how it works."

If I recall correctly, he managed Max Baer, so I assume the guy had coaching experience that helped him develop that teaching style.

He advised and was tryig to help Baer out. The two men were polar opposites so Baer naturally never took Dempsey's advice and put it into practice. They were both west coast boys that could hit and had a rugged look. Comparisons were made, but as a fellow west coaster, Dempsey tried to help him out.

 

[burningspear]

Hey! Sweet. A ressurected thread. No sarcasm.

None of the posters from 2010 remain. Crazy turnover for forum members.

Yeah I came in thinking some of the old duffers were back, then it was like 3?4? checked the date and all was clear.

 

[LEWIS540]

not the greatest fighter or heavyweight but the most important fighter in my mind. His contributions turned everything before him on it's head. don't know how i missed this thread. How would he have done with later greats? I don't know, none of them would have been easy wins and that includes Marciano. But.., it's like saying someone today can play guitar better than jimi, but would they have even ever picked up a guitar if it weren't for jimi? or, as steve vai has said "I play better technically but I play a style that he invented".

“If I have see further, it’s by standing on the shoulder of giants.” Isaac Newton

As apt in sport as it is in academia.

Comparing Dempsey to modern boxers is like comparing a surgeon from WW1 to a modern day one...,.not a fair comparison at all.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Nice analogy with Vai and Jimi. I will say also, that just because it's technically better, doesn't mean it sounds better (and that may be what is being insinuated when he said "invented"). Vai is a better player but he isn't better is how I think it to myself, though it may not make sense. To circle back to fighting, some guys are better, or should be better in a head to head, but aren't when they actually fight. Dempsey and other guys that could work a pace and be so thoroughly unfazed simply found another gear when the fight happened. So, even if Ezzard was technically better, he was never going to beat Rocky.

Nice post.

Cool way of putting it. I can't think of a more technically sound fighter than Charles, yet he existed in Rocky's era, and Rocky whooped him x2.

 

[mozfonky]

Yeah I came in thinking some of the old duffers were back, then it was like 3?4? checked the date and all was clear.

wonder what happened to most of them? they couldn't have all gotten banned, and if they did, it doesn't seem that easy to get banned here. I've always had a pretty big mouth and I haven't had problems.

 

[mozfonky]

“If I have see further, it’s by standing on the shoulder of giants.” Isaac Newton

As apt in sport as it is in academia.

Comparing Dempsey to modern boxers is like comparing a surgeon from WW1 to a modern day one...,.not a fair comparison at all.

That's right, fighters after him don't even realize they are using refinements of his techniques. Before him, fighters were still standing up, leaning back. It could be because of the smallness of the gloves/barenuckles because even a glancing shot would have to hurt, but all leaning back does is make you a better target. It's natural, it was dempsey genius that he experiment with things that are not as natural but better.

 

[mozfonky]

one thing, nothing to do with his boxing, but I never could figure out how the dempsey at age 20, had aged like 15 years by the time he was 24, he was actually a very good looking kid, i dont think boxing would cause that much aging, it was always wierd. He looked damned near effeminate in his early pics, by the time he fought willard he looked like he'd aged more than a decade. People aged faster then i guess.

 

[babycart]

As far as Dempsey being inferior to today's fighters, a couple points in his defense. First, I remember reading somewhere that the number of boxing gyms in the US was massively larger in Dempsey's day compared to today, which means that he climbed up a much slipperier pole than modern contenders.

What? You mean these boxing gyms were eased out and replaced by strip-mall krotty, aikido, ninjutsu and wing chun dojos? What a sad state of affairs for effective martial arts...

 

[Cross_Trainer]

What? You mean these boxing gyms were eased out and replaced by strip-mall krotty, aikido, ninjutsu and wing chun dojos? What a sad state of affairs for effective martial arts...

Heh. Come to think of it, yes, the 60s-80s martial arts boom arguably did fill the gap left by boxing's contraction.

 

[babycart]

And thus MMA was born: birthed to reverse the shitty trend caused by the void that was created when boxing left.

 

[Cross_Trainer]

And thus MMA was born: birthed to reverse the shitty trend caused by the void that was created when boxing left.

Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if Milo Savage had brutally KO'd Lebell in their proto MMA fight way back when. It would have been a black eye for Judo, but might also have *slightly* slowed the spread of the TMA styles that would generate the most McDojos in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

 

[babycart]

Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if Milo Savage had brutally KO'd Lebell in their proto MMA fight way back when. It would have been a black eye for Judo, but might also have *slightly* slowed the spread of the TMA styles that would generate the most McDojos in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Not sure, for there was Bruce Lee...

 

[Cross_Trainer]

Not sure, for there was Bruce Lee...

True. Who, ironically, closely studied and relied upon Dempsey.

 

[Black Helicopters]

one thing, nothing to do with his boxing, but I never could figure out how the dempsey at age 20, had aged like 15 years by the time he was 24, he was actually a very good looking kid, i dont think boxing would cause that much aging, it was always wierd. He looked damned near effeminate in his early pics, by the time he fought willard he looked like he'd aged more than a decade. People aged faster then i guess.

Everybody aged like that back then thanks to all the smoking, booze, and working in the sun from an early age.

 

[Black Helicopters]

Also, 2010 was peak SD Boxing forum. Compared to other websites like BoxingScene and Eastsideboxing, this was the best.

 

[MEAN357]

No.