Was Ali vs Foreman an early stoppage in retrospect?

[GriffinLHWChamp]

Before I get flamed for this I first want to say that Im not stating an opinion on the stoppage. Ali vs Foreman is one of my favorite and most prized sports moments. I love that fight. But somehow I always had a little creeping doubt as to how that fight ended.

Foreman was dropped at the end of round 8 and was on his feet at the 8 second mark on the 10 count. This is an undefeated champion who was winning every round and was able to make it to his feet. You don't even talk to him? You don't even give him any break there you just wave the fight off? I don't know.

Should the ref have declared Foreman back to his feet the round would of been over giving Foreman a full minute to recover. I could easily still see Ali putting it on Foreman and finishing the fight but whos to say that Foreman doesn't survive for a decision?

I personally feel like Foreman not complaining about the stoppage in many peoples eyes has been a validation of the knockout but in my eyes it was an incredible show of class on his part.

What do you guys think on the rewatch? Me? I think if I was the ref I would of seriously considered letting Foreman go and not waving off the fight there at the end of the 8th.

EDIT: On rewatch Im wondering if maybe the announcer and the referee were on different counts? The anouncer announced EIGHT- as Foreman was standing and the Referee was waving off the fight. I wasn't alive during this fight and I never heard anything about this. Was the announcers count an error and off sync with the official and correct count of the referee or did the referee simply declare foreman out once he reached 8?

Thank you. Hopefully I didn't ruffle any feathers with this one.

 

[JayElectra]

The ref's count was pretty slow. Foreman was down more than 10 seconds (close to 15, actually). Even if he had beaten the count, Ali, who, while not being a devastating puncher, was a good finisher, would have finished him off. George didn't have much left. Also, Foreman hadn't won every round by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Uhh, no...Foreman was counted out. Simple as that.

 

[GriffinLHWChamp]

To the above two posters. 15 seconds is way off. I felt like the ref started his count a little late on the rewatch however. At 8 seconds when Foreman was almost up I had counted to 10.. so this definitely makes me feel better about the stoppage but not completely as Foreman was still being told a different number. This all being said your dead on about Ali being a deadly finisher. Your right.. he had way more gas and probably would of poured it on.. probably. And as to Foreman not winning all the first 8 rounds you may be right. I wasn't born when this fight happened and every time I watch it its mainly paying attention to see how tired Foreman gets. Ive never acctually scored the fight but I would definitely say Foreman was winning on the cards when he got knocked out.

And as to Foreman being counted out.. The ref only counted to 8 and started waving his arms as Foreman stood. So Im sorry thats just not what happened. The ref waved off the fight.

 

[JayElectra]

Nah, you're right. It was the by-product of an NOI conspiracy to oust Mobutu.

 

[Sinister]

The ref waved off the fight because Foreman capitulated in body language. It's a referee's job to know when a fighter is DONE, and being as Foreman lumbered to his corner with his hands down and offered no protest, the referee did a fine job that night.

 

[Chance Boudreau]

No.

It's academic anyway,George was done.

 

[Zombles]

George wanted nothing more to do with that fight, the ref recognized it, and George didn't complain because he had broken. Foreman was many things as a young fighter but wasn't much of a liar, wasn't gonna do the whole theatrical song and dance about it getting stopped early when he was done with the fight

ref did his job

 

[mozfonky]

Before I get flamed for this I first want to say that Im not stating an opinion on the stoppage. Ali vs Foreman is one of my favorite and most prized sports moments. I love that fight. But somehow I always had a little creeping doubt as to how that fight ended.

Foreman was dropped at the end of round 8 and was on his feet at the 8 second mark on the 10 count. This is an undefeated champion who was winning every round and was able to make it to his feet. You don't even talk to him? You don't even give him any break there you just wave the fight off? I don't know.

Should the ref have declared Foreman back to his feet the round would of been over giving Foreman a full minute to recover. I could easily still see Ali putting it on Foreman and finishing the fight but whos to say that Foreman doesn't survive for a decision?

I personally feel like Foreman not complaining about the stoppage in many peoples eyes has been a validation of the knockout but in my eyes it was an incredible show of class on his part.

What do you guys think on the rewatch? Me? I think if I was the ref I would of seriously considered letting Foreman go and not waving off the fight there at the end of the 8th.

EDIT: On rewatch Im wondering if maybe the announcer and the referee were on different counts? The anouncer announced EIGHT- as Foreman was standing and the Referee was waving off the fight. I wasn't alive during this fight and I never heard anything about this. Was the announcers count an error and off sync with the official and correct count of the referee or did the referee simply declare foreman out once he reached 8?

Thank you. Hopefully I didn't ruffle any feathers with this one.

no, not at all, refs do show bias and I think Zack did there. In fact, Eddie Futch vehemently resisted having him ref the Thrilla in Manila after the Foreman fight. Now, lets get down to cases, the count was fast, George attempted to get up around 9 or so, Zack could have let him go but Zack counted him out. Would it have made a difference? Hell no, Ali had George and George was exhausted, George later complained he got a fast count but really, he was on the floor thinking of quitting in my opinion, he decided to get up too late but even if he had gotten up, Ali would have played with him more and still won. As Ali said "George is just a sore loser" and "I'd beat him easier the second time" (most likely true).

 

[mozfonky]

George wanted nothing more to do with that fight, the ref recognized it, and George didn't complain because he had broken. Foreman was many things as a young fighter but wasn't much of a liar, wasn't gonna do the whole theatrical song and dance about it getting stopped early when he was done with the fight

ref did his job

you're right, but he did complain later. Teddy Atlas said something when Forman fought moorer and everyone treated it like a last hurrah and a joke. "George could have gotten up in Zaire, it still haunts him and that's what makes him so dangerous".

 

[mozfonky]

The ref waved off the fight because Foreman capitulated in body language. It's a referee's job to know when a fighter is DONE, and being as Foreman lumbered to his corner with his hands down and offered no protest, the referee did a fine job that night.

the count was slightly fast though, I timed it once, it's 10 seconds but most counts go a few past that, Zack seemed like he wanted to count out George. I think I remember Zack being involved in some other controversy when I was a kid but details escape me now.

 

[Zombles]

you're right, but he did complain later. Teddy Atlas said something when Forman fought moorer and everyone treated it like a last hurrah and a joke. "George could have gotten up in Zaire, it still haunts him and that's what makes him so dangerous".

i agree entirely George wasn't physically broken but mentally he was done with the fight. no doubt in my mind he could have gotten back to his feet but he had never encountered someone that didn't wilt before his power before, he was physically exhausted, and Ali was landing clean shots throughout the fight refusing to back down, talking shit to George during the flurries along the ropes

i'm not even sure Ali really knocked him down clean with that pirouette George did. think he got hit hard, real hard even, got rung good, but ultimately he saw a way out and he took it because he no longer believed he could win.

young Foreman was a frontrunner, and that worked when he obliterated guys like Foreman and Norton. prior to Ali he had knocked out his last 24 or 25 opponents, he wasn't used to throwing hard and landing flush and his opponent laughing it off, and as a shy, reserved kid of 25 who was posturing as a bully for most of his life he was too immature to deal with the adversity; which also makes his second career so fulfilling since all he did was persevere through adversity with the utmost maturity a fighter can muster waiting for his moments to come. old George really found himself and is a great example in one man of how much a fighter's mentality impacts their fight game

 

[GoldenSugar]

George didn't beat the 10 count. He admits it in the documentary "Facing Ali"

 

[Reinhard]

I've always thought so, in a way I don't think he was hurt, but he indeed was finished being tired and all that

 

[mozfonky]

George didn't beat the 10 count. He admits it in the documentary "Facing Ali"

george says different things all the time, he said in his first bio that he was poisoned in zaire and that he got a fast count. George is an actor, sometimes he says what he thinks people want to hear and sometimes his real ego comes out. No way he would have won that night in zaire.

 

[DaysOfThunder]

The ref count was kind of slow but he did count to ten. There was a misscomunication between Foreman and his corner. Foreman kept looking at his corner to give him the sign to get up and they wanted him to take his time and re-coup and in the process lost count. By the time Forman got up the ref's count was allready done and the fight was waved off. There is no doubt that he could have physically continued but mentally he was confused by Ali's ability to knock him down. In reality, Foreman contribiuted to the knockdown by punching himself out. The rope-a-dope worked perfectly. It's amazing that Ali, who developed a career by slipping punches and moving, readjusted and became a punching bag just to tire out his opponent, but that's just the greatness of the man who kept up coming with new things to re-invent himself.

 

[JayElectra]

george says different things all the time, he said in his first bio that he was poisoned in zaire and that he got a fast count. George is an actor, sometimes he says what he thinks people want to hear and sometimes his real ego comes out. No way he would have won that night in zaire.

With all respect to Big George, he says a lot of stupid shit. I loved when he commentated, though. When Larry and George took jabs at each other I couldn't stop laughing. I'm sure he's not necessarily stupid, though, considering all the money he's made (maybe he is just very, very lucky).

 

[Sunfish]

Sinister is right.

To add to that, there are many instances of fighters being waved off on their feet, even in recent times.

 

[mozfonky]

With all respect to Big George, he says a lot of stupid shit. I loved when he commentated, though. When Larry and George took jabs at each other I couldn't stop laughing. I'm sure he's not necessarily stupid, though, considering all the money he's made (maybe he is just very, very lucky).

yeah, that shit was gold, thanks for the laugh. I like how he called christy martin "ragin cow" now that takes the fucking cake. Seriously though, George like many boxers just ain't good with words, but they are smart. George was very cunning and his own best manager, he conned the whole country and the sport into a second championship, he just can't fucking talk. Joe Frazier is my favorite example, just couldn't speak proper english to save his life, just as country as he wanted to be but he was very intelligent, if you can look past the things that were imprinted by his background you could tell he was a very smart man.

 

[No Mas]

66-68, 67-70, 66-69 all in favor of Ali is Foreman's way of winning every round?