Unpopular S&C Beliefs

[Synapse]

I thought it might spark some interesting conversations if we were all brave enough to share our unpopular S&C beliefs. Let's hear all that stuff you know will get you called a troll/idiot elsewhere. I'll start with my opinions on the squat:

A large percentage of average people are not physically prepared to jump into even moderately heavy squatting without risk of injury, even if form is perfect.

The deadlift is a superior exercise to the squat for a majority of athletes.

Most reasonably strong athletes would be better suited focusing on single leg loading, asymmetrical carries, and core stiffening rather than a big squat.

 

[Babba]

front squat is a far better exercise than back squats.

you get 'basically' the same out rack pulls as you do deadlifts with MUCH, MUCH lower injury risk.

 

[SummerStriker]

Burn out drills in martial arts (punching and kicking to exhaustion) don't do anything but train people to be slow and conserve energy while in the midst of a strike.

Doing more than 40-50 pushups or situps is just pointless, needless suffering. You should do a harder exercise if you can do 50 of something, unless you just get a sense of satisfaction out of doing a lot of the same thing. It isn't really making you stronger.

 

[Fighting Sprite]

I'm not going to claim deloads are dumb, but I don't see the value and can't see myself employing them beyond the week before a meet in th foreseeable future.

 

[ripskater]

So these are things you guys believe?

 

[bowlie]

Burn out drills in martial arts (punching and kicking to exhaustion) don't do anything but train people to be slow and conserve energy while in the midst of a strike.

Yeah I agree with that. My boxing coach always made us work all out all the time for minutes on end. I think that it wasnt necessary to go that hard to get better endurance, and because we were always fatigued we never got used to throwing powerful shots.

I think that possibly some people have too high a disposition to injury when doing barbell lifts.

I also question the idea that there are fundamental movement patterns like squatting, hip hinging and pushing / pulling as a reason for doing squats, deads, bench and rows. Squatting may be a natural movement, but so is raising my arm out to the side. I would argue that bench press is a better exercise than lateral raises in most situations but I dont think thats because we can call one a fundamental movement and not the other.

 

[DrBdan]

This thread would be better if people explained the reasoning behind their beliefs so there is a jumping off point for discussion.

I thought it might spark some interesting conversations if we were all brave enough to share our unpopular S&C beliefs. Let's hear all that stuff you know will get you called a troll/idiot elsewhere. I'll start with my opinions on the squat:

1) A large percentage of average people are not physically prepared to jump into even moderately heavy squatting without risk of injury, even if form is perfect.

2) The deadlift is a superior exercise to the squat for a majority of athletes.

3) Most reasonably strong athletes would be better suited focusing on single leg loading, asymmetrical carries, and core stiffening rather than a big squat.

(I added numbers for ease of discussion)

1) I don't think this one is too unpopular. A lot of people (and a lot of beginner programs) would have you start with light to moderate weights to give your body time to adapt and to build proper motor patterns.

2) I'd like to hear your reasoning. I would pick squats because you move through a larger range of motion.

3) Again, I don't think this will be too unpopular as a lot of people will agree that after achieving a reasonable level of strength (for their sport) most athletes would benefit from more specific training.

 

[Tosa]

The use of the word "Athletes" as an overly general term is problematic, to say the least. it lumps together extreme endurance athletes, strength athletes, track, fighters, etc.

 

[bowlie]

This thread would be better if people explained the reasoning behind their beliefs so there is a jumping off point for discussion.



(I added numbers for ease of discussion)

1) I don't think this one is too unpopular. A lot of people (and a lot of beginner programs) would have you start with light to moderate weights to give your body time to adapt and to build proper motor patterns.

2) I'd like to hear your reasoning. I would pick squats because you move through a larger range of motion.

3) Again, I don't think this will be too unpopular as a lot of people will agree that after achieving a reasonable level of strength (for their sport) most athletes would benefit from more specific training.

I would agree with point 2 because A) you move more weight, and B) use more muscles. think just deadlifting develops the back muscles better than just squatting.

 

[miaou]

A great part (possibly the majority) of "strength and conditioning research" appearing in scientific journals is BS. Same goes for nutrition research, btw.

Different people respond extremely differently to exercise. For example, some kids will stretch for a couple weeks and have noticeable improvements in flexibility; some kids will stretch for months with very small results that will be lost almost immediately when they stop stretching. The range of how much people respond to different types of exercise is pretty big.

There is a huge genetic component in athletic performance. Huge. Most coaches tend to overlook that fact because it's not politically correct and it also doesn't benefit their "business". Basically, the best way to "create champions" is good scouting.

Unless you are in a strength sport (power lifting, weightlifting, etc.) max strength development is an extremely simple concept. Arguing about "squat or deadlift", or "front squat or back squat", or even "uni-lateral or bi-lateral strength exercises" completely misses the big picture. For each athlete, find a way, any way, to build a strength base that involves basic motor patterns, is measurable and the athlete can perform in a safe way and do the work to produce improvement. That's all there is to it.

 

[miaou]

/miaou, Sport Science BSc

 

[rE]

ITT: common sense

People new to training in general should be started with bodyweight exercises(gymnastics basics) and TONS of mobility.

 

[raptorjesus29]

1) Almost all PT is a waste of time. In my multiple encounters with PT's and taking my my mom to a PT, I have never seen them do something that I didn't already know or that I thought was of value. Bosu half balls, quarter squats, leg lifts, and clamshells, did nothing for me, and I feel did nothing for my mom.

2) Push Ups, once developed to the point of being able to do 20+ reps, are not a useful strength exercise. It becomes a test of endurance. Single leg squats and deadlifts like wise don't seem useful to me since they do not develop maximal strength in the same way as the two legged lifts. Pull Ups, GHR, Dips are all much more useful.

3) If something is really important, you should try to do it every time you train. If you are trying to get your squat up and on a 4 days/week schedule you squat one day, it would behoove you to do more squatting on other days at submaximal weights that are gradually built up in intensity and volume. If you are trying to learn the snatch, do some snatching, even if only with the bar, every session.

 

[jrams]

2) I'd like to hear your reasoning. I would pick squats because you move through a larger range of motion.

I think the squat is the king of lifts and it is my personal favorite. However, in terms of counter acting the destructive behavior of sitting and working all day, I feel like the deadlift is more beneficial. It works the posterior chain more and probably works the core about the same.

It's not unilateral that deadlifts are better, but factoring in our increasing propensity to sit I think they are for a lot of people.

 

[Eric Brown]

#1: Most people who are critical of exercise science as well as strength and conditioning often know very little about it.
#2. Most people look for stupid ass excuses as to why they should not do shit. Currently, CNS fatigue is all the rage. It was very big in Europe.
#3. Most people do not spend enough time on the basics.

 

[SummerStriker]

Yeah I agree with that. My boxing coach always made us work all out all the time for minutes on end. I think that it wasnt necessary to go that hard to get better endurance, and because we were always fatigued we never got used to throwing powerful shots.

I think that possibly some people have too high a disposition to injury when doing barbell lifts.

I also question the idea that there are fundamental movement patterns like squatting, hip hinging and pushing / pulling as a reason for doing squats, deads, bench and rows. Squatting may be a natural movement, but so is raising my arm out to the side. I would argue that bench press is a better exercise than lateral raises in most situations but I dont think thats because we can call one a fundamental movement and not the other.

Absolutely.

One of my teachers didn't believe in weight lifting at all. Once a week, we did a 45 minute burn out circuit that would take me 5-6 days to recover from. I couldn't lift weights while I was taking his class.

A buddy of mine trained with us for awhile. He was a college soccer player, ran 10ks, and was in great shape. He did the workout for a month. One day I was at his house he was doing some pushups, gets up after about 45 of them, and says, "fucking shit, I feel like I'm getting weaker."

That's an extreme example, but his classes lead me to really question burn out drills.

I still burn out sometimes, like if I do 30 box jumps at the end of a workout, I'm beat. I didn't need all day to do it though.

 

[SummerStriker]

I did burn out drills, push ups and body weight exercises for years. We should have done them differently. One I could do 50 pushups, I should have started on pushups without my feet on the floor or something. Not 75 pushups. I could never advance past a point, hard to recover, and never got any stronger. Once I cut all that shit out and started lifting weights, I can hold my own against people in grappling classes.

NPS = Needless, Pointless Suffering

 

[DrBdan]

I'm convinced that the burnout drills are done simply to give the casual trainees the feeling that they got a really good workout. The way they were at my gym made it really hard to train multiple days in a row, which is why the fighters would usually skip them or just do them at a reasonable pace instead of going all-out.

 

[Babba]

my reasoning behind frontsquat > backsquat is that it's much safer, and it's also much more strenous for your core, it also promotes better flexibility.

rackpulls work the same exact muscles, only you can go heavier for a better glute/upper back workout, i suppose your erectors will get less work. but the injury rate going to zero is worth it.

 

[Babba]

and imo, things like nordic hamstring and reverse hypers are infinitely better than squats for people claiming hamstring/glute negligence with front squats.