The overlooked cheater: The Blood Doper

[uptheirons!]

Regardless its still cheating since they are pushing up their hematocrit levels beyond whatever that they could have achieved without doping.

It's not a drug though. It's your own blood, so it can't be called a ped.

 

[DarkneT]

I used to constantly think Cain was doing either this or straight EPO
His cardio was just insane

 

[chubbman]

Baugutinov popped for blood doping

 

[nhbfan8080]

It's not a drug though. It's your own blood, so it can't be called a ped.

Its a drug since it isn't food and it has a effect on the body. Its like harvesting test/gh/whatever from blood and reinjecting it back again.

 

[method115]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/8/2...ts-rory-peds-lh-testosterone-steroids-ufc-189

Never knew about this until now Robbie did indeed have suspicious test results.

I love watching Robbie fight. You have to be an idiot not to suspect his resurgence though. He dropped a weight class and looked more jacked than ever.

 

[nhbfan8080]

.....
What's notable is the reintroduction of transfusion based doping was mostly spearheaded by Conconi students /disciples such as Michele Ferrari (who worked with Armstrong), luigi cecchini and others

Since you probably follow the Lance Armstrong case closely, whats your take on his denial of doping after 2005?
And did he lose lawsuits lodged against him after his admission because he sued people in the past for alleging he used drugs.

Edit- Just did a search and the govt lawsuit is still proceeding as of Feb2017.

 

[oscerthegrouch]

Sort of correct. It's not that the goal is to have more pints of blood, just to have more red blood cells to carry more oxygen (which is also what EPO does)

"Blood doping is the practice of boosting the number of red blood cells in the bloodstream in order to enhance athletic performance. Because such blood cells carry oxygen from the lungs to the muscles, a higher concentration in the blood can improve an athlete's aerobic capacity (VO2 max) and endurance."

i know JACK about how all this works but isnt training at elevation trying to do the same thing naturally like climbers at
Mount Everest etc.. wouldnt that itself throw off any testing.. going back and forth from elevation ?

 

[method115]

I think a lot of guys were doing this. Guys who used to be able to go 3-5 rounds easily or at least do it looking competent look like shit after a round or two now.

 

[dim_]

i know JACK about how all this works but isnt training at elevation trying to do the same thing naturally like climbers at
Mount Everest etc.. wouldnt that itself throw off any testing.. going back and forth from elevation ?

Nah. Effects of elevation are very little, maybe three or four points of hct%, and the body normalises very quickly once away from altitude


Re altitude training, the normal routine is live high/train low, hence why people sleep in altitude tents, but really the effect is pretty minimal.

Although wada have commissioned a study this spring to look into it.

 

[dim_]

Since you probably follow the Lance Armstrong case closely, whats your take on his denial of doping after 2005?
And did he lose lawsuits lodged against him after his admission because he sued people in the past for alleging he used drugs.

Edit- Just did a search and the govt lawsuit is still proceeding as of Feb2017.

I'm confident from the blood data ive seen that he doped on his return

It looks like he rode the 2009 giro pretty clean (and didn't do well) but the 2009 tour de France his blood data shows pretty obvious signs of doping, especially when you have the spring data to compare against

Usada was already building a pretty good case for a bio passport violation in 2009 when floyd caused a stir

Think ive got his blood data somewhere, will have a dig

 

[dontlaugh]

Never for a second in my life i believed MMA fighters or any athlete in the world was clean.

Everyone cheats and gets away with it, maybe MMA fighters still can't dodge tests as much because of having to do all of the stuff by themselves and forgetting abt something.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Chris Weidman acquired excellent cardio for the Machida fight.
None of his usual 1 round and check out routine.

 

[dim_]

Since you probably follow the Lance Armstrong case closely, whats your take on his denial of doping after 2005?
And did he lose lawsuits lodged against him after his admission because he sued people in the past for alleging he used drugs.

Edit- Just did a search and the govt lawsuit is still proceeding as of Feb2017.

Dug out his 2009 data. Will go through it, not too detailed because its way off topic but a basic explanation.

This is his data for the Giro and Tour of 2009.

thats all the important data.. the volume of hemoglobin (red blood), his hematacrit (the percentage of the blood made up of red blood cells), his reticulocyte percentage, or the percentage of immature/new blood cells and his off score which is a calculation of hemoglobin (hb) v Retics which is a good sign of suspicious activity.

First the Giro and a look at those numbers.

Hemoglobin - This drops very slightly over the course of three weeks and that is normal. There are countless studies done on blood behaviour in athletes over the course of endurance races and a drop in Hb is pretty normal.

Hematacrit - linked to Hb we see a drop in the amount of red blood cells in his body, again, this is totally normal and its well accepted that over the course of a 3 week endurance race your hct will drop. In this instance about 5 points over the course of the 3 weeks.

Retics - this are pretty stable, they are a little high pre race but nothing untoward, and they as expected rise towards the end of the race (the body trying to compensate for the drop in red blood cells by producing more)

Off score - Pretty stable, theres a jump in the middle of the race but its nothing totally untoward.

Overall his giro data although we only have three data points looks retty good.


Then we get to the tour:

Hemoglobin - Here we dont see the drop in hemoglobin volume like the giro, in fact, he goes from a start of 14.3 dropping down to 13.7, but then rises again to 14.5 , this simply isnt possible.

Hematacrit - Here again, we see a drop in Hematacrit over the first week or so, which is perfectly normal, but then inexplicably his hct rises on the rest day, and then rises again for the final stage to Mont Ventoux (Where he was involved in a battle to make the podium). This isnt possible and goes against every study ever done on blood levels in sport.

Reticulocyte - heres where it get really interesting. Despite his hematocrit rising, and despite his hemoglobin increasing suggesting more red blood cells in the body, his retic% actually remains at a lower level that it was in the giro, so his body is not producing many new red blood cells.. so either, hes transfusing blood in causing the increase in hb and hct, or hes microdosing epo.

Off-score - its notable his off score between 95.8 and 98.9 is up to 20pts higher than it was during the giro, thats mega suspicious.







Whats really interesting is the two samples in June. This was a couple of days after the Dauphine finished in a rest period before the tour. Here his Hb increases massively, hes got a 45% hematacrit, his retics are low as hell, and his off-score is off the charts.

That doesnt make a huge amount of sense, increased hct suggests either blood re-infusion (blood thats been seperated from plasma) or epo (but the low retics doesnt suggest EPO).

Whats possible is after the dauphine hes injected a couple of bags in, to take a couple of bags out. (blood can only be stored for a certain amount of time so athletes will rotate.. as a blood bag is coming to the end of its storage they will reinject it, while extracting a fresh bag for storage). its possible he reinfused a bag on the 16th to compensate for one coming out to go into storage.

 

[uptheirons!]

Its a drug since it isn't food and it has a effect on the body. Its like harvesting test/gh/whatever from blood and reinjecting it back again.

Blood is not a drug.

 

[vadrigar]

Conor is doping and still can't defend a belt.

 

[uptheirons!]

"The World Anti-Doping Agency has a committee (List Committee), comprised of experts from around the world, that determines the list of prohibited substances and methods,"

Just like IVs are prohibited, so is manipulation of blood and blood components, as they're considered a "Prohibited Method" (prohibited at all times).

I'm aware of that. My argument is that it shouldn't be prohibited if it's your own blood and all you've done is stored it. I also disagree with the poster who calls it a "drug."

 

[nhbfan8080]

Dug out his 2009 data. Will go through it, not too detailed because its way off topic but a basic explanation.

This is his data for the Giro and Tour of 2009.
........

It was a while ago but what I am more interested in was whether the possible dates where he doped coincided with significantly improved performance.

Back in 2012? or around the time USADA was going to haul him in, Lance still had many supporters on sherdog saying that it was a disgraceful witchhunt. I guess Americans love to believe in their heroes who tell that 'anything' is possible.

 

[USADA]

I'm going to get to the bottom of this.

 

[EliteClown]

Ali Bagautinov popped for EPO against Mighty Mouse, Mighty Mouse had the better Cardio

 

[uptheirons!]

The problem is that athletes aren't storing it for the hell of it with no benefit. Can you give me one reason why an athlete would do it if not to enhance performance? It's done to increase red blood cells above and beyond what the body can produce naturally. Much like steroids raise T-levels above what the person's body naturally produces. They're both forms or cheating (under current WADA/USADA rules).

I agree blood isn't a drug, but doped/manipulated blood essentially can be as effective as a drug and therefore should be classified and restricted/prohibited much like steriods are.

Obviously it's being done cause it helps with performance/cardio, no one's disputing that. I simply don't think it should be against the rules to store your own blood and then reinject it if nothing's being added to it. The testosterone example isn't the same because you can't remove your own T and store it for later use, you have to take a foreign substance to achieve the same goal.