The Myth of Failing American Schools

[spamking]

I think it's a combination of lazy, over-protective parents, an extreme lack of consistent discipline at school and home . . . along with administrators changing teaching styles and curriculum on a whim . . .

All of these things drive my wife (she teaches 3rd grade) crazy.

 

[luckyshot]

Let's see.

Best miltary.

1st amendment

Just to start with.

Some of the best hospitals and universities in the world.

I didn’t ask what you like about the country, I asked what statistical comparisons justify the idea that our public schools should be performing better than they are?

If we were number one in healthcare outcomes, quality of life, life expectancy, etc., but average in education, you might validly claim our schools were “failing.”

I was about to ask about how much we spend relative to others and then found this.

Seems we underspend on pre-college education relative to other nations. On average with the OECD and we get average results for it.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

I would also argue that our schools provide far more services and are asked to overcome many more obstacle than some other countries.’

 

[Prime Rib]

We, lawyers, come in many different shapes and sizes. You can always find one to meet your needs.

I wasn't being flippant, but thanks.

 

[Prime Rib]

Not every lawyer is the bleeding heart/crying type you see in Law and Order.

A lot can be like this:


And some are just fucking stupid and you can't figure out how they even got into college for their undergrad.

Fuck you this aint The Wire, lol.

 

[Gregolian]

Fuck you this aint The Wire, lol.

I know some lawyers that'd I love to have represent me

I know scumbag ones that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy much like the dude from The Wire

I know stupid ones that are great people

And I know smart ones that are colossal pricks and I hope they get syphillis.

 

[Trotsky]

People cry about the big government all the time, but a lot of what we wish our nation would accomplish would be a great deal easier with more centralization and standardization.

Yeah, it's a give and take. For lawyers, the massive transactional costs of every state having different laws and economic policies make for great job security. But it also creates huge inefficiencies.

 

[oldshadow]

I didn’t ask what you like about the country, I asked what statistical comparisons justify the idea that our public schools should be performing better than they are?

If we were number one in healthcare outcomes, quality of life, life expectancy, etc., but average in education, you might validly claim our schools were “failing.”


I would also argue that our schools provide far more services and are asked to overcome many more obstacle than some other countries.’

I didn't say anything about feel.

I said hospitals, universities our freedoms just to start.

 

[the ambush]

I never liked math.

Fuck it, I’m out!

 

[cincymma79]

A big part of the raeason for that is because so many people bought/ buy into the myth that our schools are failing— dumb ideas have consequences.

We’re not in the top 20 in any category. Strange definition of success.

 

[luckyshot]

We’re not in the top 20 in any category. Strange definition of success.

So?

Let’s say there are 30 kids in a class. You might have 4 kids with 90+ and then a 15 kids clustered between 83-87.

You could have the 15th best grade is the class but be closer to the fourth best grade than the fourth best grade is to number one.

We are in the middle of the distribution. That’s not wild success, but it is also not failure.

It is what it is: average.

My only question is why does the narrative exist that AMERICA’S education system is failing, but not Iceland’s? Or Belgium’s? Or Sweden’s? Or Israel’s? Or Denmark? We are right next to them in the upper-middle of the bell curve in science and reading.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

That first graphic of the OP really makes me wonder what Singapore is knocking out of the park to get their kids to be #1 in Math, Science, and Reading.

 

[luckyshot]

That first graphic of the OP really makes me wonder what Singapore is knocking out of the park to get their kids to be #1 in Math, Science, and Reading.

It’s a good question.

To start with, education makes up 20% of their yearly national budget. And, of course, college is basically free (costs under $2k per year for a Singapore citizen).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Singapore

They are also #3 in life expectancy.

 

[Brazilian HKD]

I used to work on helping youth with emotional issues, sometimes partnered with schools, (some of the the best in the Boston area) and know personally harvard grads who became teachers.

In terms of History, logic and geography the teachers are borderline retarded,

One guy I know teaches history with a degree in....wait for it... Music therapy!
This is not a left or right issue, it's an American issue.

 

[oldshadow]

So?

Let’s say there are 30 kids in a class. You might have 4 kids with 90+ and then a 15 kids clustered between 83-87.

You could have the 15th best grade is the class but be closer to the fourth best grade than the fourth best grade is to number one.

We are in the middle of the distribution. That’s not wild success, but it is also not failure.

It is what it is: average.

My only question is why does the narrative exist that AMERICA’S education system is failing, but not Iceland’s? Or Belgium’s? Or Sweden’s? Or Israel’s? Or Denmark? We are right next to them in the upper-middle of the bell curve in science and reading.

So we should be happy being ok and not try to be better and better?

With our economic power we should be trying to be at the top and striving to be the best.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

They are also #3 in life expectancy.

Wouldn't be surprised if that is genetic.

It’s a good question.

To start with, education makes up 20% of their yearly national budget.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Singapore

And that's how much $$$ per student per year?

As demonstrated by our politicians, throwing more tax dollars at problems doesn't fix them.

In fact, US private schools are doing a better job of educating kids for a lower price than public schools. Don't have the figures infront of me, but its common knowledge.

 

[luckyshot]

So we should be happy being ok and not try to be better and better?

With our economic power we should be trying to be at the top and striving to be the best.

I’m not saying we should be content or not try to improve. My point is that it is objectively untrue that our system is some kind of colossal failure. Not unless you also count Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Israel, etc.- all those other countries I listed- as colossal failures.

In fact, US private schools are doing a better job of educating kids for a lower price than public schools. Don't have the figures infront of me, but its common knowledge.

Private schools also have these little things called “admissions.” So they don’t have to take anyone who is retarded or autistic or stupid or who doesn’t speak English.

They also have this thing called “tuition” which does a great job of screening out the kids of parents who don’t give a fuck. It also screens out most poor kids, kids whose parents are dope fiends, etc.

Then, after they have selected their competent, relatively affluent student body, they (unlike public school) get to kick out anyone who is fucking up or causing trouble.

Yeah, real fair comparison there.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

Tell that to a liberal, I don't think they know the word consequence ....

What do you get out of posting stupid shit like this?

 

[Zankou]

I always mock this description. For many decades now, our infrastructure has been ‘decaying’ and our schools have been ‘failing.’ After reviewing about 50 or 60 years of these stupid mechanical phrases, you will see that they are just shitty fundraising rhetoric promoted by the industry in question. They want more money, it turns out.

Go ask any private charity if there is a ‘war’ on their interest group. They’ll start foaming at the mouth and tell you about the ‘war on x.’ Shit is straight-up retarded, but it sells. To retards.

 

[bobgeese]

Many conservatives and Republicans use the “failing state of American schools” to malign teachers and teachers unions.

Even some Democrats fall into the trap of bemoaning the “sad state” of American schools.

Only one problem: it really isn’t true.

If American schools are failing, then so are Danish, Swedish, Austrian, Belgian, French, Spanish, Israeli, Icelandic, Italian, Czech, Dutch, etc.

Because these are countries whose scores we compare to.

In science, our scores are grouped with countries like Norway, Belgium, Denmark, and Ireland. We are better than Sweden, Austria, Israel and Iceland.

In Math, we lag behind the top group by quite a bit, but our scores are grouped with Israel. Should Israel be apoplectic about its math scores? And by the way, don't they have a much smaller, more homogeneous population?

In reading, we are grouped with counties like the Netherlands, Belgium, Taiwan, Australia, Denmark, and Sweden. We are better than Switzerland and Austria,

I guess the question is how well SHOULD we be doing? I can't think of any reason we should be doing significantly better than those other countries I mentioned.

In fact, given our ethnic diversity, number of students who don't speak English, and income inequality, I'd argue that our public school system, if anything, outperforms its valid expectations.

For example, we rank 34th in life expectancy. So, hey, our schools outperform that bar by quite a bit.

LOL at your graphs.


Come to a public school in a low income neighborhood in NY...

 

[luckyshot]

LOL at your graphs.


Come to a public school in a low income neighborhood in NY...

“My graphs” are the results of the PISA test, which people always use to drum up indignation and outrage over the “terrible” US performance.

If your argument is that we should quit caring so much about statistical comparisons and simply focus on making education the best it can be in each local district... well, ok.

...l but then you don’t get to bitch about how bad our education is compared to xx.

Can’t have you cake (ignore statistics) and eat it (complain about rankings), too.