Opinion The downfall of western morals started with our foreign policy

[bushman505]

Well yes. When I say 'we' and 'you' I'm talking about groups not individuals.

So then why use a we/us in regards to things that happened before anybody here was born???

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I will be trying to organize a mailing drive soon in the war room, using the presidential sticky.

 

[faustian]

Whose defense?

Can you explain to me how some multi-national corporations interest in SE Asia, is an American interest?

Who are we defending Western Civilization from? Saddam? Assad? Afghanistan? Yemeni's?
No, they are not a threat to western civilization and therefore the "collateral damage" that amounts to millions of lives is neither moral, or practical.

Defense of your civilization from its own citizens, ultimately. There are 2 most effective ways to subvert a society: 1) eliminate its leadership, 2) kill its currency. Both methods are relatively successful, as far as attacking civilizations go, because they both can be expected to produce the same thing: civil revolt. Whether it's creating a chaotic power vacuum for control or evaporating the citizenry's bank accounts, the end goal is to bring the civilization down from within by driving catastrophic civil unrest

We are not above this, even if we've never fallen victim to it. If the US were to lose its dollar hegemony by failing to prevent a coordinated fracturing of the petrodollar system, then the USD crashes and it brings down with it every economy across the globe whose currency is propped up by USD reserves lining their central bank. So basically the US and all its economic allies, i.e. the vast majority of the industrialized world. Civilized people riot over high gas prices, what do you think they'll do when they become financially insolvent overnight

This reality requires the US to not only micromanage all corners of the planet but to also do some dirty work when a legitimate threat arises. Self preservation is sufficient moral justification for me, but if you have higher standards then you can rationalize it to yourself by saying we owe it to the civilized free world to drop the hammer on anyone who dares threaten our economic hegemony

 

[SBJJ]

When our government ran out of groups of people to attack and murder within our borders. They decided, Ok, we will just reach out beyond our borders

Prediction. In 50+ years the way we treated livestock will be seen as immoral and a stain on our history.

 

[SBJJ]

We never had the moral high ground, but I would say that the beginning of the W Administration onward was when we became a country that abandoned the idea that should even aspire to have a moral high ground.

Nothing new really. The government used a true tragedy and the fear of its people to empower itself

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I posit, that the downfall of western morals, and hence a less corrupt western society, began with our foreign policy.

That when we justified employing the worst of Nazi spies, to combat communism, that we lost our moral authority.

That all the way back to WWI, and a war that killed millions, that our foreign policy in the west is undermining the very fabric of western society.

That only non-interventionism is compatible with western beliefs.

The moral Gumby-like contortion our society engages in to justify the western empire is not sustainable.

As conservatives rail against the mental disease that they call the left, the greatest assault on their beliefs, culture, and lifestyle comes from a morally corrupt doctrine of hard power, and a souless consumerism born of the very capitalist culture they so closely identify with.

Discuss..........

I'm sure its been pointed out, but we killed as many Natives as we could, enslaved Africans, passed anti-Chinese laws, meddled in foreign countries (notably South America), performed experiments on our own population, and had our own eugenics movement before the Nazis ever existed.

 

[TheComebackKid]

So then why use a we/us in regards to things that happened before anybody here was born???

Because some things involve those that are alive today. Also, God refers to nations as individuals all through out the Bible. Helps you understand history that way.

 

[nac386]

When our government ran out of groups of people to attack and murder within our borders. They decided, Ok, we will just reach out beyond our borders

That would mean that the morals were nonexistent from the start then, right? Since the government was murdering and attacking folks within our borders from the very start.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Nothing new really. The government used a true tragedy and the fear of its people to empower itself

You know what also isn't new? Facilitating tragedies in order to produce the justification to empower itself. We went into Afghanistan for the poppy fields... not for Osama Bin Laden.

 

[bushman505]

Because some things involve those that are alive today. Also, God refers to nations as individuals all through out the Bible. Helps you understand history that way.

blah blah the Bible blah blah....

 

[TheComebackKid]

blah blah the Bible blah blah....

Well you asked me why... that's why. Now run along Esau.

 

[bushman505]

Well you asked me why... that's why. Now run along Esau.

There are very few things more pathetic than born again religious freaks.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Defense of your civilization from its own citizens, primarily. There are 2 most effective ways to subvert a society: 1) eliminate its leadership, 2) kill its currency. Both methods are relatively successful, as far as attacking civilizations go, because they both can be expected to produce the same thing: civil revolt. Whether it's creating a chaotic power vacuum for control or evaporating the citizenry's bank accounts, the end goal is to bring the civilization down from within by driving catastrophic civil unrest

If the US were to lose its dollar hegemony by failing to prevent a coordinated fracturing of the petrodollar system, then the USD crashes and it brings down with it every economy across the globe whose currency is propped up by USD reserves lining their central bank. So basically the US and all its economic allies, i.e. the vast majority of the industrialized world. Civilized people riot over high gas prices, what do you think they'll do when they become financially insolvent overnight

This reality requires the US to not only micromanage all corners of the planet but to also do some dirty work when a legitimate threat arises. Self preservation is sufficient moral justification for me, but if you have higher standards then you can rationalize it to yourself by saying we owe it to the civilized free world to drop the hammer on anyone who dares threaten our economic hegemony

Who isn't tied to the petrodollar? Russia? Iran? Venezuela?
And who/ what is in position to replace it?
You have to answer these questions before you can define who is attacking WesternCiv via the petrodollar and thereby support that its even under attack.

My take is that there is not alternative and that there is not a deliberate attempt to undermine the petrodollar.
And nobody stands to gain more than they lose from the collapse of the petrodollar, some countries are simply better positioned to pivot than others. Which is another reason I find it abhorrent that the US, a country positioned to pivot with a diverse economy, but also a significant oil importer/ exporter, is attacking poor nations, who lack that flexibility. Even more abhorrent when you factor in the option of sustainable energy alternatives.

The bottom line is that these wars of aggression have nothing to do with the petrodollar as much as it has had to do with securing our position as the lone superpower. And at this point, seeing as we've lost ground to China since these operations started, it seems that the only reason we haven't taken our foot off the pedal is to sustain our military economy - also abhorrent because its just a reflection of of our collective refusal to adjust to modern times at the expense of murdered innocents and the hoarding of power by a select few.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Who isn't tied to the petrodollar? Russia? Iran? Venezuela?
And who/ what is in position to replace it?
You have to answer these questions before you can define who is attacking WesternCiv via the petrodollar and thereby support that its even under attack.

Foreign Exchange: Saddam Turns His Back on Greenbacks
By William Dowell/New York City Monday, Nov. 13, 2000

Europe's dream of promoting the euro as a competitor to the U.S. dollar may get a boost from SADDAM HUSSEIN. Iraq says that from now on, it wants payments for its oil in euros, despite the fact that the battered European currency unit, which used to be worth quite a bit more than $1, has dropped to about 82[cents]. Iraq says it will no longer accept dollars for oil because it does not want to deal "in the currency of the enemy."

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,998512,00.html

Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention

Newly disclosed emails show that Libya’s plan to create a gold-backed currency to compete with the euro and dollar was a motive for NATO’s intervention.

"....This gold was accumulated prior to the current rebellion and was intended to be used to establish a pan-African currency based on the Libyan golden Dinar. This plan was designed to provide the Francophone African Countries with an alternative to the French franc (CFA)...."

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.co...ls-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/

 

[Seano]

Well yes. When I say 'we' and 'you' I'm talking about groups not individuals.

A group of people that no longer exist. Trump and Obama had nothing to do with it. My father, grandfather, great grandfather- all innocent of this atrocity but somehow to blame at the same time?

When does it end?

 

[Seano]

The thread is about western values, and it is the westerners who's values are in question. That's the entire context of this thread. When he says "we" he's not referring to you as an individual, he's referring to westerners.

It's like saying, "When we won the Revolutionary war..." I'm sure you would not go, "Hey man, I did not fight in that war, leave me out of it."

What values?

I tend to see quite a variance in western values.

 

[nac386]

What values?

I tend to see quite a variance in western values.

That's a good point. The idea of the thread seems to be predicated on the belief that the west once had a set of values and does not anymore.

That's why many of the response are basically saying, "At what point was the west virtuous enough to even ask this question?" American history is littered with horrific actions by citizens and government, as is most of world history.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Foreign Exchange: Saddam Turns His Back on Greenbacks
By William Dowell/New York City Monday, Nov. 13, 2000

Europe's dream of promoting the euro as a competitor to the U.S. dollar may get a boost from SADDAM HUSSEIN. Iraq says that from now on, it wants payments for its oil in euros, despite the fact that the battered European currency unit, which used to be worth quite a bit more than $1, has dropped to about 82[cents]. Iraq says it will no longer accept dollars for oil because it does not want to deal "in the currency of the enemy."

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,998512,00.html

And why wouldn't he after our sanctions lead to the death of 500,000 children?

Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention

Newly disclosed emails show that Libya’s plan to create a gold-backed currency to compete with the euro and dollar was a motive for NATO’s intervention.

"....This gold was accumulated prior to the current rebellion and was intended to be used to establish a pan-African currency based on the Libyan golden Dinar. This plan was designed to provide the Francophone African Countries with an alternative to the French franc (CFA)...."

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.co...ls-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/

Debunking the Dumping-the-Dollar Conspiracy

 

[faustian]

Who isn't tied to the petrodollar? Russia? Iran? Venezuela?
And who/ what is in position to replace it?
You have to answer these questions before you can define who is attacking WesternCiv via the petrodollar and thereby support that its even under attack.

My take is that there is not alternative and that there is not a deliberate attempt to undermine the petrodollar.
And nobody stands to gain more than they lose from the collapse of the petrodollar, some countries are simply better positioned to pivot than others. Which is another reason I find it abhorrent that the US, a country positioned to pivot with a diverse economy, but also a significant oil importer/ exporter, is attacking poor nations, who lack that flexibility. Even more abhorrent when you factor in the option of sustainable energy alternatives.

The bottom line is that these wars of aggression have nothing to do with the petrodollar as much as it has had to do with securing our position as the lone superpower. And at this point, seeing as we've lost ground to China since these operations started, it seems that the only reason we haven't taken our foot off the pedal is to sustain our military economy - also abhorrent because its just a reflection of of our collective refusal to adjust to modern times at the expense of murdered innocents and the hoarding of power by a select few.

-Saddam moved from USD to Euro just prior to our eliminating him
-Gaddafi was spearheading an African gold currency when we eliminated him
-Bin Laden was actively trying to break the US/Saudi partnership when the US went into Afghanistan to eliminate the Taliban
-Iran has never cooperated with the petrodollar and launched their oil bourse in 2008. A year later the Iran Refined Petroleum Sanctions Act of 2009 was introduced in the US Senate. A year US passed the Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act of 2010

The US secures its position as the lone superpower by securing the petrodollar system which enables us to print USDs with impunity

 

[bushman505]

-Saddam moved from USD to Euro just prior to our eliminating him
-Gaddafi was spearheading an African gold currency when we eliminated him
-Bin Laden was actively trying to break the US/Saudi partnership when the US went into Afghanistan to eliminate the Taliban
-Iran has never cooperated with the petrodollar and launched their oil bourse in 2008. A year later the Iran Refined Petroleum Sanctions Act of 2009 was introduced in the US Senate. A year US passed the Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act of 2010

The US secures its position as the lone superpower by securing the petrodollar system which enables us to print USDs with impunity

It’s pretty awesome really.