The depressing state of karate

I get what you're saying Pan.

I'm no karate expert, but for example Benny Urquidez considers himself a Tae Kwon Do based fighter.

When he teaches kickboxing, it's kickboxing. It has elements of his style in it, but when you train Tae Kwon Do or anything else for a kickboxing ruleset eventually it becomes kickboxing. And that's fine. If TS wants that from Karate, find a Kyokushin school that puts out knockdown karate flavored kickboxers and has coaches with kickboxing experience.

It doesn't make sense to try to force an Olympic Tae Kwon Do gym (or worse the entire community) to switch focus to kickboxing if that's not what they do.
 
panamaican said:
They're not the same. So you shouldn't train them like they are, just because there are some overlaps.

If combat sports training methods work better for fighting (at least the type of fighting that you're valuing) then doesn't it make sense to train with people who are focused on maximizing combat sports efficiency? That is the part of your argument that still doesn't make sense.

1) Combat sports and self-defense are not same.
2) Combat sports methods work better for fighting.
3) Identify combat sports training arts.
4) Don't train in those combat sports, train in something else and try to make that something else into combat sports. o_O

Right between 3 & 4 is where things stop making sense. Once you identify combat sports training arts, like MT, boxing, wrestling, etc., you haven't explained why people should skip those things for karate? I keep reading "karate should evolve" but evolve into what? A combat sport training art -- then why not just train MMA, kickboxing, MT, etc.?
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None of those martial arts began as combat sports so why do those arts get to evolve but not karate?
I’ll take someone trained in combat sports to help me extricate myself during a bar fight over someone only trained in ‘self defense’ methodologies, common in the TMAs.
Self defense is fighting. If you can’t fight you can’t defend your self.

KB doesn’t have the breadth of techniques found in karate.
MT is closer, but still lacking.
MMA isn’t a specific style, why would I train 2 or 3 or more arts at once to get that same breadth of techniques, when I could simply make some small adaptations to the way I train?
 
shunyata said:
I get what you're saying Pan.

I'm no karate expert, but for example Benny Urquidez considers himself a Tae Kwon Do based fighter.

When he teaches kickboxing, it's kickboxing. It has elements of his style in it, but when you train Tae Kwon Do or anything else for a kickboxing ruleset eventually it becomes kickboxing. And that's fine. If TS wants that from Karate, find a Kyokushin school that puts out knockdown karate flavored kickboxers and has coaches with kickboxing experience.

It doesn't make sense to try to force an Olympic Tae Kwon Do gym (or worse the entire community) to switch focus to kickboxing if that's not what they do.
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No one has said anything about forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want…not sure where that came from.
 
shunyata said:
I get what you're saying Pan.

I'm no karate expert, but for example Benny Urquidez considers himself a Tae Kwon Do based fighter.

When he teaches kickboxing, it's kickboxing. It has elements of his style in it, but when you train Tae Kwon Do or anything else for a kickboxing ruleset eventually it becomes kickboxing. And that's fine. If TS wants that from Karate, find a Kyokushin school that puts out knockdown karate flavored kickboxers and has coaches with kickboxing experience.

It doesn't make sense to try to force an Olympic Tae Kwon Do gym (or worse the entire community) to switch focus to kickboxing if that's not what they do.
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I like the gist of what you are saying in the first three paragraphs.

Anthony Pettis had a TKD background.

He could easily have gone to an MMA gym and been told his prior training was a load of bollocks.

You could argue instead he trained under Duke Roufus who adapted his skills to MMA, though he probably discarded a lot of stuff.

That said I’m a bit confused by your last paragraph. Are you saying TKD can be a soft precursor to kickboxing (with some never taking it that far)?
 
JohnPJones said:
None of those martial arts began as combat sports so why do those arts get to evolve but not karate?
I’ll take someone trained in combat sports to help me extricate myself during a bar fight over someone only trained in ‘self defense’ methodologies, common in the TMAs.
Self defense is fighting. If you can’t fight you can’t defend your self.

KB doesn’t have the breadth of techniques found in karate.
MT is closer, but still lacking.
MMA isn’t a specific style, why would I train 2 or 3 or more arts at once to get that same breadth of techniques, when I could simply make some small adaptations to the way I train?
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They don't get to evolve. They have already evolved.

But you raise a point with KB that I don't think you understand. Karate already evolved. It became Kyokushin and Kickboxing (see Tatsuo Yamada). The reasons you stopped "seeing" karate evolve in the 1970s was because it had already evolved into kickboxing. KB started in the 60s and 70s and has continued to evolve. Dutch KB evolved from Dutch people who took Japanese kickboxing back to Europe in the 1970s and then it further evolved.

This entire line of conversation reflects this core misunderstanding of karate history. You demand that karate evolve. It evolved into KB - first Japanese then Dutch. Further evolution in karate for combat sports is going to be found in the continued evolution of KB. But you seem completely uninterested in that line of evolution.

I'll ask a different question, please answer it: Were you aware that kickboxing evolved from Karate in Japan in the 1960s?
 
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panamaican said:
They don't get to evolve. They have already evolved.

But you raise a point with KB that I don't think you understand. Karate already evolved. It became Kyokushin and Kickboxing (see Tatsuo Yamada). The reasons you stopped "seeing" karate evolve in the 1970s was because it had already evolved into kickboxing. KB started in the 60s and 70s and has continued to evolve. Dutch KB evolved from Dutch people who took Japanese kickboxing back to Europe in the 1970s and then it further evolved.

This entire line of conversation reflects this core misunderstanding of karate history. You demand that karate evolve. It evolved into KB - first Japanese then Dutch. Further evolution in karate for combat sports is going to be found in the continued evolution of KB. But you seem completely uninterested in that line of evolution.

I'll ask a different question, please answer it: Were you aware that kickboxing evolved from Karate in Japan in the 1960s?
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And yet kickboxing isn’t karate, so it can still evolve.
Bruh I’ve literally pointed out that KB was initially full contact karate on here so many times that’s an asinine and retarded question.
 
JohnPJones said:
And yet kickboxing isn’t karate, so it can still evolve.
Bruh I’ve literally pointed out that KB was initially full contact karate on here so many times that’s an asinine and retarded question.
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Then you see how asinine and retarded it is to ask why karate doesn't keep evolving? It evolved, you should follow that path of evolution instead of ignoring that it is the answer to your question.
 
I kinda feel like people want the aesthetic of karate in MMA or kickboxing. I really think that some of the major appeal of BJJ isn't just being good at fighting, but also the hero worship, outfits, bowing, kneeling, belts and all that jaz. You just don't get it with standup unless there is also a bunch of other wonkiness that doesn't translate to striking combat sports, and when you try to put it in, a LOT of people who pray to Gracie and bow on mats and wear kimonos and shit bad mouth it for being corny. It's kinda like when someone makes a new superhero that unironically wears tights with underwear on the outside and acts heroically without killing people, who flies and has super strength or whatever. People accept that from Superman and Batman because even though it is silly, it has that history that lends credibility.

If I start a karate school and have people wearing belt colors I made up, bowing to a picture of my teacher, making prayer hands before they get on the mat, calling me "sir" or whatever, people will be like, "why are you cosplaying?" You need a narrative for why it isn't cosplaying. Ancient Japanese did it this way, and my "teacher" in Japan said I should, is good enough for a bunch of people.

I think what would be popular is if kick boxers, who can articulate a direct line of instruction back to someone in Japan, kept training in the modern method but then also wore Japanese outfits and bowed to one another, prayed to paintings of men, bowed on the mat, and all that. Kneel while receiving instruction. Then add in some of the harmless, old school workouts. Break boards. Workout with jars full of sand, stone hammers, chains, whatever. Punch boards for knuckle conditioning on the side. Do knuckle pushups. Punch each other in the stomach. Stuff like that.
 
SummerStriker said:
I kinda feel like people want the aesthetic of karate in MMA or kickboxing. I really think that some of the major appeal of BJJ isn't just being good at fighting, but also the hero worship, outfits, bowing, kneeling, belts and all that jaz. You just don't get it with standup unless there is also a bunch of other wonkiness that doesn't translate to striking combat sports, and when you try to put it in, a LOT of people who pray to Gracie and bow on mats and wear kimonos and shit bad mouth it for being corny. It's kinda like when someone makes a new superhero that unironically wears tights with underwear on the outside and acts heroically without killing people, who flies and has super strength or whatever. People accept that from Superman and Batman because even though it is silly, it has that history that lends credibility.

If I start a karate school and have people wearing belt colors I made up, bowing to a picture of my teacher, making prayer hands before they get on the mat, calling me "sir" or whatever, people will be like, "why are you cosplaying?" You need a narrative for why it isn't cosplaying. Ancient Japanese did it this way, and my "teacher" in Japan said I should, is good enough for a bunch of people.

I think what would be popular is if kick boxers, who can articulate a direct line of instruction back to someone in Japan, kept training in the modern method but then also wore Japanese outfits and bowed to one another, prayed to paintings of men, bowed on the mat, and all that. Kneel while receiving instruction. Then add in some of the harmless, old school workouts. Break boards. Workout with jars full of sand, stone hammers, chains, whatever. Punch boards for knuckle conditioning on the side. Do knuckle pushups. Punch each other in the stomach. Stuff like that.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. People like the aesthetic of karate but want the practicality of kickboxing. But, as you note, if you're focusing on the practicality of it all then all that other stuff goes out the window - which then makes some people feel less "special" or something.

I've been posting on here a while and my engagement with karate has gone from training and sparring for personal benefit to teaching my son. And I teach him at home, without a gi (just whatever we're wearing), without belts, etc. but still with kata and kihon and kumite. And the #1 question he keeps asking me is "Dad, what belt would I be?" o_O

I train him with full power on his side (obviously not on mine). All the techniques as he would get them as a blackbelt, not as a 7 year old while belt. He learns and applies kata application from day one (punches, kicks, locks, throws, etc.), free spars from day one. And yet he wants to have a colored belt. :( No matter how much I try to explain to him that getting a colored belt doesn't mean that he can fight or defend himself and that what I'm teaching him is stuff he can use right now. We're not marching up and down the room kicking and punching air for 45 minutes. If his punch lacks power, I can feel it in my ribs. If his blocks are slow/weak, he can feel it. If he's not moving his feet or his head, the feedback is immediate. He can fight, he can defend himself, he can escape a grab, etc....

...But he still wants a belt.

And I think that's exactly what you're pointing to - that desire for the imagery of being an "expert", of some kind of visual reward for training. But that sort of thing loses importance when people/arts switch to a focus on combat practicality, as in arts like kickboxing, boxing, etc. Kickboxing with belts would be wildly popular and eventually people would chase belt colors instead of effective fighting skills.
 
panamaican said:
Then you see how asinine and retarded it is to ask why karate doesn't keep evolving? It evolved, you should follow that path of evolution instead of ignoring that it is the answer to your question.
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Everything continuously evolve.

really don’t get why this triggers you so much
 
JohnPJones said:
Everything continuously evolve.

really don’t get why this triggers you so much
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It doesn't trigger me. I'm simply pointing out that what you want already exists. It's just pointless to demand that karate transform into something else when the "something else" already exists. I think SummerStriker hit the nail on the head. There are people who want the pageantry of karate but really want to train in kickboxing or something else.

People can always pursue a less effective training style. If people want combat sport effectiveness but don't want to train combat sports then they want a less effective path to their goal. If they say "karate should evolve" but ignore that kickboxing evolved from karate then they want to go backwards in training methodology. It can only be explained so many ways before it becomes obvious that people don't really want the most effective training, they just want the illusion of it. They want to dress up in gis and get colored belts while avoiding the most effective training available. All so that they can say "I train karate" when they really don't want karate, they want kickboxing.
 
@JohnPJones if you have some vision for how Karate should evolve that differs from kickboxing then do it. Go for it dude.

Look, if you go back through sherdog history you'll find over and over and over that people think whatever the current incarnation of martial arts is is the end all be all, and over and over they've been wrong.

If you see something that other people don't see or can not see that's what makes you special, and when you've got that special something people that directly benefit from you failing will try to convince you that you are 'special.'

If you've got it then prove them wrong, or just ignore them and prove yourself right.

Whatever works for you dude.
 
Karate is pretty much dead in my neck of the woods (Central Ohio). It's all MMA derived arts over here now, which is a big turn around from when I was growing up and it was karate/TKD pretty much everywhere. You still get kids doing TKD here and there, but it's nothing compared to the number of kids doing BJJ. BJJ has really replaced the gi-based martial arts here.
 
Seefoo said:
Karate is pretty much dead in my neck of the woods (Central Ohio). It's all MMA derived arts over here now, which is a big turn around from when I was growing up and it was karate/TKD pretty much everywhere. You still get kids doing TKD here and there, but it's nothing compared to the number of kids doing BJJ. BJJ has really replaced the gi-based martial arts here.
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yeah, but I bet those bjj kids can barely count past 5 much less in a foreign language.
 
For anyone familiar with Judd Reid, I like what he seems to be doing with his Chikara Academy - keeping the traditions but the training has evolved past his Kyokushin background to incorporate boxing, kick/Thai boxing too. Best of both worlds if you want effective, full contact training along with the pomp and ceremony of a more "traditional" art.
 
MilkManUK said:
For anyone familiar with Judd Reid, I like what he seems to be doing with his Chikara Academy - keeping the traditions but the training has evolved past his Kyokushin background to incorporate boxing, kick/Thai boxing too. Best of both worlds if you want effective, full contact training along with the pomp and ceremony of a more "traditional" art.
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Between his 100man kumite documentary and the karate culture YT I was really inspired to keep karate moving forward with an eye to the past.
 
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