The danger of the "soft" BJJ philosophy/dogma

[Ayrshire Grappler]

Some good points made. Some bad examples sighted to backup these points.

 

[Russky]

If we are talking about da stritz then one year of boxing will give you much more than one year of bjj or judo. I train judo because I love judo.

 

[Ryo]

I've trained at a lot of gyms and in a lot of styles. I've always known BJJ guys to be genuinely excited when someone comes in from another style. On the flip side, the Judo schools I've trained at were extremely unwelcoming and suspicious of the "other" grappling arts. YMMV

Well, from experience, I can tell you that this is because alot JJ guys go to Judo and act like dickheads. Instead of trying to learn Judo, they wanna pull guard (basically play JJ) and do other things that are not productive to learning Judo. This is disrespectful and a waste of time. Go to Judo to learn Judo and your game will improve drastically. Going to Judo and doing the opposite is arrogant. If you go to a competitive judo club, they care about winning Judo. They dont care what background you are from.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If we are talking about da stritz then one year of boxing will give you much more than one year of bjj or judo. I train judo because I love judo.

Absolutely not.

 

[SummerStriker]

I've only trained BJJ in two places, and only for a day each, where I thought the culture was weak and the instructors shitty, and I've trained a lot of people's BJJ.

My experience is that almost everywhere there is lots of sweat, blood most days and too many injuries.

 

[jack36767]

I agree. That's why when he said bjj guys don't look to other grappling arts, I disagreed. BJJ is like a melting pot of many grappling arts. Because BJJ has the least amouny of rules, we CAN and DO pull from other arts. When we do, it becomes part of BJJ like you said.

Ok.. while this technically true.. saying that that even half of bjj schools even if they do or don't teach it actually treat wrestling as a fully developed technical sport is not reflective of reality.

In fact the more I've seen these discussions, the more I feel the "bjj has obviously incorporated all other arts I don't think any of this point is valid" (point being what the TS is saying) amounts to a cop out and avoiding the actual discussion

 

[jack36767]

Well, from experience, I can tell you that this is because alot JJ guys go to Judo and act like dickheads. Instead of trying to learn Judo, they wanna pull guard (basically play JJ) and do other things that are not productive to learning Judo. This is disrespectful and a waste of time. Go to Judo to learn Judo and your game will improve drastically. Going to Judo and doing the opposite is arrogant. If you go to a competitive judo club, they care about winning Judo. They dont care what background you are from.

Yeah you see a similar thing when they go to a wrestling practice or bring someone like me in, instead being "true martial artists" and "humble" and actually learning. There's constant questioning, the not good kind, the challenging kind where they're constantly saying "well what if he does this, or it leaves you open to X so they feel ok with not actually learning". Then on top of it they'll pull guard against anyone who can take them down rather than pushing themselves then pretend like they don't know why they are getting better

*yes, everyone knows old frail hobbbyists can't train hard, just roll hard then whine when you roll hard back. I'm not referring to that demographic

*everyone here is aware some wrestlers can be bullies whether intentionally or unintentionally or not listen well in bjj gyms. What's annoying when trying to acknowledge or address the ways bjj practitioners do the same sort of thing.. it's always "pshh no, bjj guys are always open to all, we already put that in even though it's never used, and pshh bjj guys aren't condescending towards wrestling"
It's kind of hard to have an honest discussion

 

[Crotalis]

It's kind of hard to have an honest discussion

It's really only difficult in situations like this where the OP clearly has little to no real understanding and a thinly veiled agenda.

Most of the BJJ folks I know are genuinely interested in other grappling arts. The exceptions I've run into are some of the Gracie schools where they still hold on the "UFC 1" mentality, but they're outliers at this point. On the flip side, there's the stereotype of the "spazzy wrestler". I've run unto a few of those, but no more so than spazzy jits players and spazzy Judoka. It's a person thing not an art thing.

Side note here because I'm curious - I often see people here like the OP who simply liken wrestling to "brute strength" and "power". It's weird to me because any time anyone who knows how to wrestle has shown me anything, I've always been surprised at how similar to Judo some of the concepts are. Yet so many people talk about wrestling like it's just all meathead brute strength ,mixed with a lot of cardio. So for those of you who really know wrestling, am I way off base with thinking that the meathead thing is kind of a misrepresentation?

 

[Knock Out Ned]

Disclaimer: I love BJJ...

....but I feel the art often has a lot of dogmatic, rigid, and ultimately dangerous core beliefs that make it under-effective for MMA or self defense when compared to harder grappling styles like wrestling or sambo.

I'm surprised that this is even a debate.

I'll start off by qualifying:
Of course if a great wrestler knows nothing about BJJ or submissions, then yes... that person is likely to get submitted against a BJJ guy. However, once that same someone learns the basics (and I'm talking 6 months or even less of BJJ training) then its going to be a lot different when it comes to a fight. And no, a BJJ match isn't a fight. I mean a fight..with punches and stuff.

I have noticed some dangerous beliefs and rigid practices in many BJJ schools:

1) generally I feel that pure BJJ guys are less open to learning other grappling arts. At most, many will only learn rudimentary takedown aspects of wrestling, and will completely ignore the ground work (folk style wrestling) or more advanced takedowns/tie ups.
I seldom see this being the other way around.

2) the "never turn your back to an opponent" belief. Turning your back to an opponent is a common strategy used to scramble and get back to your feet.
It's also not as easy to jump on the back and choke someone out just because they turned away from you. I see this all the time in MMA, bellying-out and exploding to your feet is a common technique used to stand up. A lot of BJJ guys seem to be ill prepared for this and often will have a terribly hard time keeping someone down.

3) being on your knees. What's with this? Shooting for a takedown and the guy sprawls... DONT BE ON BOTH KNEES.
Take someone down with a double leg? DONT land on your knees. Stay on your toes and drive into them. Not everyone is going to just pull guard. The immediate aftermath of a takedown, before the two guys "stabilize" on the ground, is often a great time for the bottom guy to escape... during that transition from feet to ground.

4) obsession with passing the guard, only to wind up in side control and then get reversed... what's with that? Like I'll see a guy make a hell of an effort to pass guard and then end up in side control (chest to chest... on their knees instead of on toes)... and then get reversed!!!! All that effort for what??
Of course, once side control is stabilized the top man can start to vary his position to get a submission or advance to mount... but why do they go to their knees as soon as they get there??

5) no emphasis on standing up. More or less BJJ guys assume to stay on the ground rolling around. There's little or no emphasis on escaping to your feet. In wrestling, bottom guy is gonna try to get up.. same as in a street fight... it takes a whole new level of effort to keep them down when they aren't gonna just stay there.

6) general distaste for more aggressive and Brute techniques. I notice if someone holds on to a guillotine even after they had their guard passed, it's looked down upon in BJJ... even if they use it to sweep or to apply a partial choke to make something happen.

Also there's almost a tendency to not slam or mat-return. For example if you have someone's back standing up and you do a wresting mat-return where you lift them and take them back down... people at some academies don't like that.

I just feel like In General there is this unspoken agreement to play nice.

7) On average, more of a distaste for hard strength training and conditioning.


Let me finish by saying that gym wars and being unnecessarily aggressive is obviously not cool... but a lot of times when you are grappling someone who doesn't train (I.e. A self defense scenario... the very thing most people get into BJJ in the first place for)... they aren't going to move in the same way as someone who trains. They are going to try to escape, they are going to hold on to whatever they can grab. and often... if your not prepared... they might be able to reverse you or just escape because you weren't expecting them to do this "noob move."
I'm just saying it seems counter intuitive and maybe I'm just confused cause my friend, a 3 stripe blue belt, literally got raped choked in a wrestling match with someone who doesn't train at all. He literally got rape choked, two hands on his threat, until he tapped out. Why? Cause he had never had that happen before...

I love BJJ but I feel some schools have these very rigid beliefs and practices.. where they refuse to incorporate, counter... or even address less-orthodox or just different grappling styles into their game.

The ground workof folkstyle wrestling is IMHO very important for making a well rounded grappler, and I feel like the passive nature of BJJ makes it not the best choice for an MMA base.

I feel like wrestling is almost viewed as a supplement to BJJ training, instead of its own art (which it is) that has to be practiced in full.
It's not as hard to get into as most folks think.
Two or even one brutal wrestling practices per week will make an enormous change in a pure BJJ guy's game.

I'll cut to the chase..why do you guys think wrestling is often overlooked or not fully embraced in BJJ schools?? I feel like its because it's hard as balls. Let's call a spade a spade. It's easily the most exhausting of the MMA component arts... imo it's harder than MMA in terms of fatigue.

Why did I make this post? Because while some of you are probably going to think this is obvious, many of you are probably not going to agree with me... and that's the problem.

Man if I ever start an MMA school, wrestling will be the main grappling style.... and I'll end up in debt.. LOL

Shut up and train.

 

[jack36767]

It's really only difficult in situations like this where the OP clearly has little to no real understanding and a thinly veiled agenda.

Most of the BJJ folks I know are genuinely interested in other grappling arts. The exceptions I've run into are some of the Gracie schools where they still hold on the "UFC 1" mentality, but they're outliers at this point. On the flip side, there's the stereotype of the "spazzy wrestler". I've run unto a few of those, but no more so than spazzy jits players and spazzy Judoka. It's a person thing not an art thing.

Side note here because I'm curious - I often see people here like the OP who simply liken wrestling to "brute strength" and "power". It's weird to me because any time anyone who knows how to wrestle has shown me anything, I've always been surprised at how similar to Judo some of the concepts are. Yet so many people talk about wrestling like it's just all meathead brute strength ,mixed with a lot of cardio. So for those of you who really know wrestling, am I way off base with thinking that the meathead thing is kind of a misrepresentation?

I'm not saying all bjj schools or instructors are like that. You should know I love bjj, but I've encountered it enough outside of Gracie schools that that it does have to be addressed

 

[Crotalis]

I'm not saying all bjj schools or instructors are like that. You should know I love bjj, but I've encountered it enough outside of Gracie schools that that it does have to be addressed

Oh yeah - I'm not saying it shouldn't be addressed or that it never happens. I'm just saying it's not as common as the OP would have everyone believe, and also that you CAN have an honest discussion about it as long as no one has an agenda (which the OP clearly has).

 

[EliteUltra500]

1) yes, the guy he was wrestling didn't train but he's a lot bigger and definitely way stronger. But he's goofy af, it was a pure strength move (rape choke).

But fuck man it worked.



2) I know I should just stop comparing the two. But BJJ I feel can give people a false sense of security. It's not superior to other arts it's just different.

I realize that I just made a post that has probably already been done, and a lot of you guys have valid points and are probably just tired of seeing the same old shit.

 

[EliteUltra500]

Oh yeah - I'm not saying it shouldn't be addressed or that it never happens. I'm just saying it's not as common as the OP would have everyone believe, and also that you CAN have an honest discussion about it as long as no one has an agenda (which the OP clearly has).

I don't brother!!! Maybe just at the school I trained at. It was frustrating cause I could never get the guys to come to a wrestling practice with me.

And then they all laughed at me. And my mom disowned me. So
I'm out for revenge.

Oh wait is that an agenda?