The danger of the "soft" BJJ philosophy/dogma

[EliteUltra500]

Disclaimer: I love BJJ...

....but I feel the art often has a lot of dogmatic, rigid, and ultimately dangerous core beliefs that make it under-effective for MMA or self defense when compared to harder grappling styles like wrestling or sambo.

I'm surprised that this is even a debate.

I'll start off by qualifying:
Of course if a great wrestler knows nothing about BJJ or submissions, then yes... that person is likely to get submitted against a BJJ guy. However, once that same someone learns the basics (and I'm talking 6 months or even less of BJJ training) then its going to be a lot different when it comes to a fight. And no, a BJJ match isn't a fight. I mean a fight..with punches and stuff.

I have noticed some dangerous beliefs and rigid practices in many BJJ schools:

1) generally I feel that pure BJJ guys are less open to learning other grappling arts. At most, many will only learn rudimentary takedown aspects of wrestling, and will completely ignore the ground work (folk style wrestling) or more advanced takedowns/tie ups.
I seldom see this being the other way around.

2) the "never turn your back to an opponent" belief. Turning your back to an opponent is a common strategy used to scramble and get back to your feet.
It's also not as easy to jump on the back and choke someone out just because they turned away from you. I see this all the time in MMA, bellying-out and exploding to your feet is a common technique used to stand up. A lot of BJJ guys seem to be ill prepared for this and often will have a terribly hard time keeping someone down.

3) being on your knees. What's with this? Shooting for a takedown and the guy sprawls... DONT BE ON BOTH KNEES.
Take someone down with a double leg? DONT land on your knees. Stay on your toes and drive into them. Not everyone is going to just pull guard. The immediate aftermath of a takedown, before the two guys "stabilize" on the ground, is often a great time for the bottom guy to escape... during that transition from feet to ground.

4) obsession with passing the guard, only to wind up in side control and then get reversed... what's with that? Like I'll see a guy make a hell of an effort to pass guard and then end up in side control (chest to chest... on their knees instead of on toes)... and then get reversed!!!! All that effort for what??
Of course, once side control is stabilized the top man can start to vary his position to get a submission or advance to mount... but why do they go to their knees as soon as they get there??

5) no emphasis on standing up. More or less BJJ guys assume to stay on the ground rolling around. There's little or no emphasis on escaping to your feet. In wrestling, bottom guy is gonna try to get up.. same as in a street fight... it takes a whole new level of effort to keep them down when they aren't gonna just stay there.

6) general distaste for more aggressive and Brute techniques. I notice if someone holds on to a guillotine even after they had their guard passed, it's looked down upon in BJJ... even if they use it to sweep or to apply a partial choke to make something happen.

Also there's almost a tendency to not slam or mat-return. For example if you have someone's back standing up and you do a wresting mat-return where you lift them and take them back down... people at some academies don't like that.

I just feel like In General there is this unspoken agreement to play nice.

7) On average, more of a distaste for hard strength training and conditioning.


Let me finish by saying that gym wars and being unnecessarily aggressive is obviously not cool... but a lot of times when you are grappling someone who doesn't train (I.e. A self defense scenario... the very thing most people get into BJJ in the first place for)... they aren't going to move in the same way as someone who trains. They are going to try to escape, they are going to hold on to whatever they can grab. and often... if your not prepared... they might be able to reverse you or just escape because you weren't expecting them to do this "noob move."
I'm just saying it seems counter intuitive and maybe I'm just confused cause my friend, a 3 stripe blue belt, literally got raped choked in a wrestling match with someone who doesn't train at all. He literally got rape choked, two hands on his threat, until he tapped out. Why? Cause he had never had that happen before...

I love BJJ but I feel some schools have these very rigid beliefs and practices.. where they refuse to incorporate, counter... or even address less-orthodox or just different grappling styles into their game.

The ground workof folkstyle wrestling is IMHO very important for making a well rounded grappler, and I feel like the passive nature of BJJ makes it not the best choice for an MMA base.

I feel like wrestling is almost viewed as a supplement to BJJ training, instead of its own art (which it is) that has to be practiced in full.
It's not as hard to get into as most folks think.
Two or even one brutal wrestling practices per week will make an enormous change in a pure BJJ guy's game.

I'll cut to the chase..why do you guys think wrestling is often overlooked or not fully embraced in BJJ schools?? I feel like its because it's hard as balls. Let's call a spade a spade. It's easily the most exhausting of the MMA component arts... imo it's harder than MMA in terms of fatigue.

Why did I make this post? Because while some of you are probably going to think this is obvious, many of you are probably not going to agree with me... and that's the problem.

Man if I ever start an MMA school, wrestling will be the main grappling style.... and I'll end up in debt.. LOL

 

[SummerStriker]

Wrestling gives you almost no bang for your buck in gi BJJ point contests, so why bother?

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Holy shit that was long. Bjj started as a fighting art and is now turning into a sport.

 

[closequarters]

OP is all pver the place. Don't even know what to address first, lol.

Basically bjj guys roll according to the ruleset, that means it's better to spend time on bjj techniques instead of wrestling techniques. For example, why fight to stand up when you don't score for a stand up. We sweep instead. And we try to sweep into a dominant position.

Showing your back in the gi is more dangerous than in wrestling. Don't really need to explain that do I?

if people are being reversed after they pass guard, that's their shortcoming. Getting rilled when you have top side control isn't a fault of bjj, it's the fault of the person getting rolled.

I think bjj guys are totally open to learning other grappling arts. But since time is not unlimited, you have to only cherry pick what works best in a bjj ruleset.

Distaste for rough or brutal techniques? You gotta be kidding me. Your guillotine example is bad. If you have a guillotine and they pass your guard, most likely you will lose your submission. If you can finish after they pass or sweep, more power to you. I've never heard anyone look down on some for finishing a choke after someone passes guard: see basebalk bat chokes from the bottom. No slams...well yeah. BJJ is sport made for all ages and genders with longevity in mind. So we are more careful with slams and gard mat returns. Different philosophy than wrestling (short career) and mma (slams are part of the ruleset).

As far as shooting a double wrong. That's yo to the practitioner, don't blame the sport. Again, why spend as much time drilling double legs as you would a sweep? Double legs are hard to hit in bjj.

 

[SummerStriker]

I think bjj guys are totally open to learning other grappling arts. But since time is not unlimited, you have to only cherry pick what works best in a bjj ruleset.

Sure, but there is no heaven of ideals where the list of BJJ moves is written, so all of those cherry picked moves have already been made a part of BJJ.

If you do it in a BJJ class and it's allowed in the BJJ rules, then what you are doing is BJJ.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

I'm just saying it seems counter intuitive and maybe I'm just confused cause my friend, a 3 stripe blue belt, literally got raped choked in a wrestling match with someone who doesn't train at all. He literally got rape choked, two hands on his threat, until he tapped out. Why? Cause he had never had that happen before...

I literally agree with almost all your points, and I love sport BJJ and I still actively compete as a lighter black belt in IBJJF competitions where there is a lot of the modern style going on. I agree with the importance of training wrestling and being aware of BJJ for fighting too, especially when things are forced to be more basic

But I will say, your friend probably sucks, especially if he and the other guy are the same size. That would be excusable if there was a significant size difference. I could be wrong as I don't know the situation but lots of factors like this depends on the athletic ability, size, strength, and previous experience the non-trained aggressor has. Also, a 3 stripe blue belt isn't very experienced, especially if they aren't competition/fight minded.

 

[closequarters]

Sure, but there is no heaven of ideals where the list of BJJ moves is written, so all of those cherry picked moves have already been made a part of BJJ.

If you do it in a BJJ class and it's allowed in the BJJ rules, then what you are doing is BJJ.

I agree. That's why when he said bjj guys don't look to other grappling arts, I disagreed. BJJ is like a melting pot of many grappling arts. Because BJJ has the least amouny of rules, we CAN and DO pull from other arts. When we do, it becomes part of BJJ like you said.

 

[lechien]

How do you end up getting raped choke with 2 hands on the throat during a wrestling match with someone that does not train at all????

Is it another thread like the 2 months (only) white belt that tapped out a blue belt?

Breaking news: no one cares.

 

[fubot]

BJJ Scout should have put "trigger warning" on some of his recent videos.

 

[Dogstarman]

Lol. This thread. Let me see. Op is a 20 something blue or white belt that is going to come in and change bjj. He is going to transform it to a more hard style? Everyone in his school is going to learn wrestling only with a few submissions.

Your school won't last. I'm a 40 something purple belt. I won't train takedown anymore. I need the longevity. Let's face it. I'm coming toward the end of my journey. I'm not going to take downs or go balls to the wall wrestling style anymore. Guys who do that, young guys, I let them run around. I had a young guy break my wrist last year because I was trying to keep up. I was actually doing really well until he exploded out of a position that he wasn't supposed to explode out of and my wrist was caught in the gi material. I don't keep up with young guys anymore.

 

[closequarters]

I literally agree with almost all your points, and I love sport BJJ and I still actively compete as a lighter black belt in IBJJF competitions where there is a lot of the modern style going on. I agree with the importance of training wrestling and being aware of BJJ for fighting too, especially when things are forced to be more basic

But I will say, your friend probably sucks, especially if he and the other guy are the same size. That would be excusable if there was a significant size difference. I could be wrong as I don't know the situation but lots of factors like this depends on the athletic ability, size, strength, and previous experience the non-trained aggressor has. Also, a 3 stripe blue belt isn't very experienced, especially if they aren't competition/fight minded.

Congratulations on your blackbelt.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Oh god...

Let me see... High school wrestler jining a bjj gym and being surprised he's running through white belts....

Dude... Exposing your back in the gi is not a good thing, exposing your back for self defense it's either worst, there are no ref to stop you from getting fuck up with elbows from the back, gloves makes a huuuuge difference for rnc efficiency also. By the way, it's extremely common to expose your back in good gyms, people turtle or invert all the time in order to regain guard or avoid the guard pass.

Wanna train hard like a competitor? Go to atos and check with the competition team, see how much of a pussy their training is... Wrestling is a competitive sport you are there to compete, bjj is not, you could be there to lose weight, or to look cool to pick up chicks. Apple and oranges.

Wrestling and bjj are an awesome combo... But most people will always have one as their main art an the other as the second... Not everyone is under 20 and has enough time to go full deep into both arts.

Your friend got his blue belt and stripes at the local store? Put them up and told you... Yo I'm a world class blue belt... 3 stripes, close to be considered a serial killer... He sucks balls period.

 

[Crotalis]

1) generally I feel that pure BJJ guys are less open to learning other grappling arts. At most, many will only learn rudimentary takedown aspects of wrestling, and will completely ignore the ground work (folk style wrestling) or more advanced takedowns/tie ups.
I seldom see this being the other way around.

I've trained at a lot of gyms and in a lot of styles. I've always known BJJ guys to be genuinely excited when someone comes in from another style. On the flip side, the Judo schools I've trained at were extremely unwelcoming and suspicious of the "other" grappling arts. YMMV

2) the "never turn your back to an opponent" belief. Turning your back to an opponent is a common strategy used to scramble and get back to your feet.
It's also not as easy to jump on the back and choke someone out just because they turned away from you. I see this all the time in MMA, bellying-out and exploding to your feet is a common technique used to stand up. A lot of BJJ guys seem to be ill prepared for this and often will have a terribly hard time keeping someone down.

The thing is, in a real fight "with punches and stuff", I can just blast you in the back of the head the second you turn around. So by all means, go belly down and initiate a wrestling style scramble and see how far it gets you.

being on your knees.

This one is mostly because of space. Hard to do live takedowns in a room with 30 people when that room holds about 15 comfortably. Admittedly, takedowns IS an area where most pure BJJ gyms need to improve, so I would generally agree on that point.

bsession with passing the guard, only to wind up in side control and then get reversed... what's with that? Like I'll see a guy make a hell of an effort to pass guard and then end up in side control (chest to chest... on their knees instead of on toes)... and then get reversed!!!! All that effort for what??
Of course, once side control is stabilized the top man can start to vary his position to get a submission or advance to mount... but why do they go to their knees as soon as they get there??

Passing the guard is important. It sounds like you are seeing a lot of really SH*$$y BJJ. Nothing more to see here.

general distaste for more aggressive and Brute techniques. I notice if someone holds on to a guillotine even after they had their guard passed, it's looked down upon in BJJ... even if they use it to sweep or to apply a partial choke to make something happen.

Also there's almost a tendency to not slam or mat-return. For example if you have someone's back standing up and you do a wresting mat-return where you lift them and take them back down... people at some academies don't like that.

I just feel like In General there is this unspoken agreement to play nice.

This makes you sound like a a-hole. Most gyms are kept in business not by the hard core competitors, but rather by the part time hobbyists. These people have to go to work the next day and would rather not have some over-compensating meat head plow them through the mat at a Tuesday night beginner's BJJ class. Things like slams don't make you tough and they don't make you good or more capable. Slams are generally pretty easy to prevent once you've learned the key grips and techniques so why not focus on proper escapes rather than meat-heading an accountant through the mat?

I'm just saying it seems counter intuitive and maybe I'm just confused cause my friend, a 3 stripe blue belt, literally got raped choked in a wrestling match with someone who doesn't train at all. He literally got rape choked, two hands on his threat, until he tapped out. Why? Cause he had never had that happen before...

I kind of don't believe that, but if it is true, your friend either straight up sucks, OR the guy he was fighting was significantly larger and stronger.

The ground workof folkstyle wrestling is IMHO very important for making a well rounded grappler, and I feel like the passive nature of BJJ makes it not the best choice for an MMA base.

You're making a wide assumption. Most of the BJJ gyms in my area have successful MMA fighters. We all train with strikes and have fairly aggressive games.

I'll cut to the chase..why do you guys think wrestling is often overlooked or not fully embraced in BJJ schools?? I feel like its because it's hard as balls. Let's call a spade a spade. It's easily the most exhausting of the MMA component arts... imo it's harder than MMA in terms of fatigue.

My gym has regular wrestling classes. 3 nights a week. Most of the other gyms in our area do something similar and any time I've traveled, the gyms I went to had a huge appreciation for what wrestling can bring to BJJ. It really sound like you just don't like BJJ and would rather wrestle. No big deal. Just go wrestle!

 

[Cash Bill 52]

Who trains jiu Jitsu for self defense? I mean, I did and I do. Now, I train in boxing, Muay Thai, and karate when I want to kill people. Wrestling is for crazy people. I get crazy once and a while. My Russian 2 on 1, high crotch, single and double legs are lethal. I don't want to kill my fellow professional doctors, lawyers, or teachers who come to class for a good workout.

 

[ziggyholiday]

Honestly, with this wrestling/takedown bit people seem to be on when critiquing "modern" BJJ....I mean, just look at Holt. Probably the highest level wrestler we have here as a poster and what does he do? For BJJ, pull guard. People train for their own reason, train how you want for the reasons you want. Nothing is wrong with the sport nor the Art. Competition is still important and the sport has more people than ever doing it.

 

[winterbike]

Wow, it's like you're enlightened or something. What seem like casual observations to you are exceptional to us. Can you tell us more about life and its mysteries? What's your opinion on Donald Trump?

 

[mattemate]

my friend, a 3 stripe blue belt, literally got raped choked in a wrestling match with someone who doesn't train at all. He literally got rape choked, two hands on his threat, until he tapped out. Why? Cause he had never had that happen before...

Your "friend" sucks. Your thread sucks. Most people cross train at this point. I love going hard with wrestlers. And BJJ has a LOT of good wrestlers. They do BJJ because they got their ass kicked by pure BJJ at a certain point and want to know how to do that. And most BJJ guys want to improve their wrestling.

 

[yetanother]

I don't want to learn most of the folkstyle ground stuff. A few of the rides might be useful for beating someone up in MMA and the spiral ride is super good in bjj but a lot of the stuff that gets a guy from turtle back into his guard sucks.

 

[mataleaos]

I agree with a lot of this, but I also think there ate some generalizations in here. First of all, most people have limited time in life for hobbies. Most people that do martial arts have jobs, families, and busy lives. Expecting most people to cross train in other martial arts and disciplines is just not very realistic. However, I'll say that it seems like the major point here seems to be that focusing on wrestling helps BJJ. I can't agree more. I worked a lot on number 5 in your post and it made me drastically better. I do think BJJ is softer now than when I started in 2006 in terms of painful/brute techniques like you say, but again, the sport is more mainstream. If you look on Reddit BJJ you'll find a lot of threads asking if this technique is a dick move or if so and so was rolling too hard. That place is mostly white and blue belts, and I've been on Sherdog since 2008 and I don't remember as many posts like that over here back in the day. Maybe I'm wrong though.

But again, a lot of this is generalization that isn't true anymore. Once you get to serious hobbyists and competitors, there is no dogma about turning your back. People are cross training in other arts. People are working more wrestling. With sub only tournaments people are working more neck cranks and uncomfortable techniques. I rarely see anyone but the most brand new white belts knee wrestling. I don't see good grapplers getting reversed once they pass the guard. I have trained at lots of schools and I travel to train at other gyms frequently.

 

[KikoJones]

The OP makes so many generalities and assumptions that are completely wrong.
We train the Sport of BJJ according to the Rule set.
In every school I've trained, every good instructor, when teaching a technique, makes a caveat regarding it's effectiveness on the STREEZ. We practice take downs enough to bring the fight to the ground where we're most comfortable in. A wrestler will also attempt to take it to the ground but look for the Pin. I'm not looking for the Pin.
Most people are untrained and suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is.

If I wanted to compete in wrestling, I'd practice wrestling. If I wanted to compete in Muay Thai, I'd practice Muay Thai.

I feel confident as a BJJ Purple belt, that I would prevail against an untrained opponent.

OP, you're bitching about an Apple not being like an Orange.