Takedowns in Judo

[Esile]

I heard that single and double leg takedowns are allowed in judo if I attempt them as a part of a chain of attacks.
Is that true?
Sorry for my poor english I'm italian.

 

[jr jr]

Your English if fine. I can't answer your questions. I gave up keeping up with IJF rules.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

That used to be the rule, but now they're banned completely.

 

[RJ Green]

not under the current ruleset. what you described is the initial amendment to the rules post 2008.

beginning in 2012 all below-the-waist contact was penalized with hansokumake

the post-Olympic 2016 revisions allow for one leg-grab shido before hansokumake.

this rule has never been fully embraced by the judo community. while traditionalists think this favors more 'pure' Judo, others speculate it was to stymie the emerging dominance of eastern european/Russia and Mongolian wrestlers.

leg grabs still exist in the kodokan canon, specifically the kata guruma present in nage-no-kata.

adding to the confusing, this year the kodokan canonized new leg-grabbing techniques, including obi-tori-ashi-dori (now obi-tori-gaeshi) and kouchi makikomi.

 

[Esile]

Another question: In judo groundwork, can I stand up in order to passy my opponent guard?

 

[ArtemV]

Another question: In judo groundwork, can I stand up in order to passy my opponent guard?

Usually not. Most refs just stop it when you stand up in an opponent's guard.

 

[Esile]

Why are judo rules so freaking awful?

 

[lechien]

Why are judo rules so freaking awful?

They are not aweful.

They are more focused towards tachiwaza, no wrestling a LA double leg takedown (even thought it is part of the original curriculum) and almost banished any be newaza.

 

[Esile]

They are not aweful.

They are more focused towards tachiwaza, no wrestling a LA double leg takedown (even thought it is part of the original curriculum) and almost banished any be newaza.

That's awful in my book, especially considering that you can't do even do shoulder locks or leg locks, you can't touch the opponent's face, you can't wrap your opponent's body etc...

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

while traditionalists think this favors more 'pure' Judo, others speculate it was to stymie the emerging dominance of eastern european/Russia and Mongolian wrestlers.

Though I know many traditionalists who dislike the leg touch bans exactly because morote gari and kata guruma were traditional, coming from Kano himself (how much more traditional can you get than Kano)? I think its more a case of the Mifune traditionalists (ie starting in the 1950's) being against that style of judo than the really old school judo traditionalists.

I still hope that ban will be overturned.

 

[RJ Green]

Another question: In judo groundwork, can I stand up in order to passy my opponent guard?

if you do it quickly enough, yes.

think about people who stand over a turtle and pull the belt up to get hooks in. that's totally legit, and allowed.

the new rules say to continue matwork as long as there's 'progression', and have eliminated the 'matte' when you lift someone from guard or during a submission attempt. just like BJJ, there's a DQ for slamming from this position.

i asked an IJF-B specifically about this differentiation, and he brought up the new direction in the rules about 'progress.'

at the end of the day, judo refereeing is still a bit inconsistent. some refs are allergic to newaza and get pretty confused. honestly, the rules are pretty vague on this. some people interpret newaza to mean you can only pass from the knees, but it doesn't state that in the rulebook. there's nothing 'illegal' about standing passes. i say go for it.

i'm hardly an authority. i'm only a regional ref, although i'll probably test for my national certification this year. since i cross-train BJJ I'm more apt to let scrambles continue than some of the older refs. i also don't call 'matte' when both parties simultaneously stand up from groundwork, even though i think we're supposed to...ah well.

"let 'em play" is the general idea behind the new rules.

 

[RJ Green]

Though I know many traditionalists who dislike the leg touch bans exactly because morote gari and kata guruma were traditional, coming from Kano himself (how much more traditional can you get than Kano)? I think its more a case of the Mifune traditionalists (ie starting in the 1950's) being against that style of judo than the really old school judo traditionalists.

I still hope that ban will be overturned.

IMHO the people who think that judo should only be turning throws with no leg grabs or newaza can eat a fat dick. that's called kurash.

 

[Russky]

Another question: In judo groundwork, can I stand up in order to passy my opponent guard?

Yes. However if this is closed guard the opponent will lift himself up and referee will call matte.
Open guard is fine. Even better: if opponent landed on the ground and you are still standing he may not touch your legs until you get your knee to the ground.

 

[Stoic1]

BJJ and wrestling are Judo kryptonite. That's the reason for the new rules. It's bullshit and Judoka will do a whole lot of mental gymnastics to deny it.

But it's true.

 

[Russky]

This is the price IJF had to pay to presrve judo as Olympic sport. With both Greco-Roman and Freestyle wrestling banned Judo federation had to change the rules to make it more dynamic and therefore attractive to TV audience. Follow the money.

 

[lechien]

That's awful in my book, especially considering that you can't do even do shoulder locks or leg locks, you can't touch the opponent's face, you can't wrap your opponent's body etc...

Lol! Who cares?

We cannot knee reap under ibjjf rules...but no one really complains about it

 

[RJ Green]

This is the price IJF had to pay to presrve judo as Olympic sport. With both Greco-Roman and Freestyle wrestling banned Judo federation had to change the rules to make it more dynamic and therefore attractive to TV audience. Follow the money.

I don't buy that for a hot minute. This is some straight-up IJF kool-aid bullshit.

If you wanted the sport to be more dynamic, you wouldn't take out its most dynamic throws. You wouldn't create a rule contrary to all natural grappling instincts. You wouldn't awkwardly stop the match every 20 seconds.

If anything, banning below-the-waist grabbing makes it *more* like Greco. The rules and scoring are so similar you might as well tell people "it's Greco in pajamas with chokes and armbars."

That rule was created to halt the dominance of wrestling, plain and simple. Not to appeal to some non-existent TV audience.

Yes. However if this is closed guard the opponent will lift himself up and referee will call matte.

That rule doesn't exist anymore.

Even better: if opponent landed on the ground and you are still standing he may not touch your legs until you get your knee to the ground.

That rule never existed.

That's awful in my book, especially considering that you can't do even do shoulder locks

You can kimura, americana, and reverse omoplata. Nobody's gonna stop you mid-sub and ask uke where it hurts more.

or leg locks,

yeah that's fuckin stupid.

you can't touch the opponent's face,

with your hand. you can crossface the fuck out of someone with your shoulder.

you can't wrap your opponent's body etc...

another anti-wrestling/sambo rule change.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

BJJ and wrestling are Judo kryptonite. That's the reason for the new rules. It's bullshit and Judoka will do a whole lot of mental gymnastics to deny it.

But it's true.

Spoken like a true non-judoka.

 

[Stoic1]

Spoken like a true non-judoka.

You mean a Judo brown belt who quit in frustration.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

BJJ and wrestling are Judo kryptonite. That's the reason for the new rules. It's bullshit and Judoka will do a whole lot of mental gymnastics to deny it.

But it's true.

Well, actually if you're wearing jackets you mean BJJ and sambo - wrestling isn't very efficient throw/take down wise when jackets are worn, the gi grips are simply too effective. This plays out pretty clearly in sambo, which has some world class Russian wrestlers take it up only to learn they need to work on gi throws.

But the reason for the rules was the fear that the IOC wanted to reduce grappling to one sport (the IJF admitted this was their concern), and the IJF (who'd sell their souls for a cup of coffee) figured differentiating itself from wrestling was vital to remain in the Olympics (and I won't get into the whole argument that the Olympics were the worst thing to happen to judo rule-wise, even tho its probably true). The oddest thing about that was that wrestling had a no-leg-touch division, Greco-Roman, so all that happened was that judo became a jacket version of Greco instead of a jacket version of freestyle.

There's a lot to be said for having a jacket version of grappling - for a start, in much of the world people wear jackets most of the year. Being attacked when its 20 below outside by someone wearing a t-shirt is not a concern, you only need to dance around for the minute it takes for them to seize up in hypothermia. And if there's a jacket to grap then no-jacket techniques are decidedly second rate.

And of course what was really ironic was that the IOC was ready to get rid of wrestling shortly afterwards (complete insanity, given wrestling was one of the original - as in ancient Greek Olympics original - sports.