Striker vs. Wrestler

A striker with good tdd would beat a wrestler though
 
I thought we proved that at UFC 1?

Snarkiness aside, as many have posted, it's not as simple as it sounds. The unified rules of MMA do greatly favor someone able to get a takedown, plus the way physics works. If you're laying on your back and you punch someone in the face, you're not able to deal as much damage as someone who is on top of you, able to wind up his punches back and throw with his shoulders.

In other words, there's almost no reason not to go for a takedown if you have the ability to do so, short of your opponent kneeing your face off (Which by the way might get them disqualified). This means that strikers have to constantly be aware of the takedown threat.

The thing is that power is not the hard thing about striking. Most of these guys can lift weights that would make us cower in fear. Generating power is only useful if you can also land a clean shot. A takedown doesn't have to land completely clean- you can push through, you can clinch, you can scramble. Strikes (assuming one guy is trying to wrestle) have to be picture perfect.

Again, it can happen, but 9 times out of 10 it will be easier to get a takedown on someone than to knock out someone going for a takedown with a legal strike.

So assuming all skills are equal, I think that wrestling has an inherent advantage in MMA just based around the rules.
 
BigMuffler said:
Well boxing has never managed to have more than like 1 good SHW sized fighter at a time and they have been around much longer and supposedly have a deeper talent pool.
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You're probably right. I'm just imagining a SHW division for the sake of the disussion. Imagine a UFC filled with guys from the 130kg/125kg wrestling talent pool.

Also, boxers tend to be taller and skinner, while MMA fighters are a lot of times more muscular and thus shorter due to grappling. Look at 125lbs boxers vs. MMA fighters for example. So using the weight of current HW boxers doesn't necessarily tell us how guys that sized would weigh in MMA. Could be wrong, though.
 
A.S. Deep said:
You're probably right. I'm just imagining a SHW division for the sake of the disussion. Imagine a UFC filled with guys from the 130kg/125kg wrestling talent pool.

Also, boxers tend to be taller and skinner, while MMA fighters are a lot of times more muscular and thus shorter due to grappling. Look at 125lbs boxers vs. MMA fighters for example. So using the weight of current HW boxers doesn't necessarily tell us how guys that sized would weigh in MMA. Could be wrong, though.
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True but even 7 footers like Struve and Schilt could make HW, you pretty much have to be a real genetic anomaly (Choi, Giant Silva) or massively roided (Sapp) to not be able to make it.
 
BigMuffler said:
True but even 7 footers like Struve and Schilt could make HW, you pretty much have to be a real genetic anomaly (Choi, Giant Silva) or massively roided (Sapp) to not be able to make it.
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Genuinely asking: Don't the wrestlers at 125kg/130kg (275lbs/286lbs) cut weight? Because if they do, then they'd have to change their bodies to make 265, wouldn't they? That'd make them true SHWs even though most aren't super tall or Sapp sized.
 
aichokyu said:
the BJJ/submission guy is the apex predator and eats the wrestler for breakfast
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The problem is the bjj guy has to be a better striker as well because the wrestler can dictate if he wants to take him down or not
 
A.S. Deep said:
Genuinely asking: Don't the wrestlers at 125kg/130kg (275lbs/286lbs) cut weight? Because if they do, then they'd have to change their bodies to make 265, wouldn't they? That'd make them true SHWs even though most aren't super tall or Sapp sized.
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Brock was said to cut from 300 lbs. Although if you call them SHWs then you’d have to call all the MWs and LHws, Heavyweights. Everybody walks around more than their division
 
depassage said:
Can we now agree that in most cases a good wrestler is superior than a good striker in a fist fight?
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Pure Striker vs Pure Wrestler

Wrestlers wins almost every time.
 
serious question, why don't some fighters round out their game and turn their weaknesses into strengths, start beating people at their own game like fedor did? If i was edson I'd buy a singlet and go train with the Penn State wrestling team for like 2 years straight, Im sure someone with his athleticism and IQ should pick it up pretty quickly.

i never understood the only learn TDD method like why not throw spinning wheel kicks AND start german suplexing mofos
 
Knee the wrassler in the head when he telegraphs his shots.
 
depassage said:
Can we now agree that in most cases a good wrestler is superior than a good striker in a fist fight?
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Most certainly not, UFC and the so called "unified rules" help wrestlers otherwise they would not make money in US. Can we agree that UFC is a business?

Is simple as this:
1) Fights take forever to be broken up, and I really mean forever.
2) Fighters are awarded points just for laying on top.
3) For some crazy reason you're not allowed to grab the fence, as if the two fighters were fighting in a bowl of cereal, wtf is that?
4) The utterly incomprehensible: When a fighter is down on the mat he cannot kick the fighter on top, how lame is that?

So, yeah, as long as UFC is using wrestler-made rules to sell out in US, we can certainly see that wrestlers will end up UDing people. Wrestling is not even a fight, it's more of a top-control sport thingie than boxe, muay thai, karate and so on.

What bothers me most is that those rules were done to stem MMA in US, we already set foot in US and now we have plenty of good strikers in US that can't get into it mostly because of this wrestler-wise regulation. Where the F. is the F in UFC?

No wonders why we get to see "UFC is dying" threads more and more often, old timeys starting to lose interest (@Cooliox made a topic about it days ago) and so on.

Sorry if I'm much too different from you guys, I recall when I was in high school and there was the wrestling team and I always thought
9ec.jpg

(No problems with gay people tho)
 
A.S. Deep said:
I call this the grappler's advantage.

On average, it's easier to get a takedown/grab someone than it is to KO someone in the lighter weight classes. BUT the higher in weight you go the easier it is to KO someone. This is why at LHW you start getting guys like Manuwa and Volkan who can get by on power and why at HW nearly everyone relies a fair bit on power. Basically, a FW wrestler like Mendes can get hit by a few punches while closing the distance, but a HW wrestler like Lesnar has to be super careful when closing the distance like he was against Hunt. I'd say at HW strikers and wrestlers are equal. If we had athletic SHWs then strikers would probably be on top at SHW since getting hit once by an athletic 300+ pound man will take 99% of people out.

Anyone disagree?
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While I agree with your point, I'd have to disagree with your numbers ufc/pride heavyweight show us a good majority of dominance is found in wrestling still, Colman, Randleman, Brock, Randy, Stipe, cain, Fedor all overcame elite better strikers with wrestling. It hard to say numbers maybe call it 60/40 but I can't see any weight of elite where a dominant wrestler isn't favored heavily if they're having say 10 matches vs the elite striker.
 
Mmmmmmma1234 said:
While I agree with your point, I'd have to disagree with your numbers ufc/pride heavyweight show us a good majority of dominance is found in wrestling still, Colman, Randleman, Brock, Randy, Stipe, cain, Fedor all overcame elite better strikers with wrestling. It hard to say numbers maybe call it 60/40 but I can't see any weight of elite where a dominant wrestler isn't favored heavily if they're having say 10 matches vs the elite striker.
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Great point. Now that I think more about it, I have to give wrestlers the advantage even at HW. But it's definitely more even than at lighter weight classes. Having it 60/40 seems fair.

Though with heavier HWs such as Ngannou I have it 55/45. Reason being that Stipe wouldn't have even been able to use his wrestling if he didn't have the head movement to dodge Ngannou's shots. Blaydes has shown to have a really good chin which is why he wasn't KOed completely by Ngannou. Match an Ngannou who never learned grappling vs. Coleman and the max I'd favor Coleman is 55/45.
 
Sapp said:
Given that it's the base of 6/8 current male UFC champions (and the base of the #1 contender in one of the two that isn't), seems hard to overestimate the importance.
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meeeh, these guys all train subs as well, and you could argue there is a statistical over-representation of wrestling based fighters (once again it is a legit base) because it is the main fighting sport in america and the org being american and catering for an american audience, they have mostly american fighters.
I think this aspect is not considered enough, that this sample of fighters is influenced by the ruleset and the cultural specificities of the organising country.
 
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