Striker vs. Wrestler

[Ilovepizza]

 

[RayA]

A running theme in these TUF seasons is that the successful coaches look to and pick the best wrestlers for their team as they're the most likely to get the W. TJ nearly wiped out Cody's team, save for one, doing this.
To be fair though, TUF rarely sports any remarkable strikers.

 

[aichokyu]

Sambo has submissions doesn't it?

 

[Organic Damage]

It's a lot harder to land a single perfect KO strike than it is to land a single takedown.

Anyway, the UFC rules favour wrestlers.

 

[Alphaboy]

Agreed!

Especially if we are talking about outside of professional fights. If two people get into a fight IRL, it is usually in some enclosed space and they are in super close proximity, striking each other but within distance so that the grappler/wrestler can grab the striker.

Besides, the average Joe on the street who has never trained can very well know how to throw a punch or dodge one (a lot of people have gotten into street fights). If someone hasn't grappled before someone who is the least bit competent at wrestling/grappling will almost always win (all other factors accounted for).

 

[A.S. Deep]

I call this the grappler's advantage.

On average, it's easier to get a takedown/grab someone than it is to KO someone in the lighter weight classes. BUT the higher in weight you go the easier it is to KO someone. This is why at LHW you start getting guys like Manuwa and Volkan who can get by on power and why at HW nearly everyone relies a fair bit on power. Basically, a FW wrestler like Mendes can get hit by a few punches while closing the distance, but a HW wrestler like Lesnar has to be super careful when closing the distance like he was against Hunt. I'd say at HW strikers and wrestlers are equal. If we had athletic SHWs then strikers would probably be on top at SHW since getting hit once by an athletic 300+ pound man will take 99% of people out.

Anyone disagree?

 

[Ruthless_swag]

Obviously. If you allow headbutts and knees to the head of a grounded opponent the wrestler wins 9 out of 10 times.

Unfortunately wrestling is very boring to watch and drives casuals (and a lot of hardcores) away from MMA.

A striker can pummel the wrestler's head if he mistimes his takedown too. Striker could hit the back of his head anytime the wrestler attempts to take him down as he exposes his head.
I love wrestling but i have seen so many instances where wrestlers take advantage of the rules when they find themselves in a tough situation. Barboza could have ko'd lee senseless had he gone for the kill when lee was prancing around after absorbing a flush kick to the head. Unfortunately he was afraid to get dq'd since lee had his hands on the ground moments later.

 

[Pain4Pain]

I call this the grappler's advantage.

On average, it's easier to get a takedown/grab someone than it is to KO someone in the lighter weight classes. BUT the higher in weight you go the easier it is to KO someone. This is why at LHW you start getting guys like Manuwa and Volkan who can get by on power and why at HW nearly everyone relies a fair bit on power. Basically, a FW wrestler like Mendes can get hit by a few punches while closing the distance, but a HW wrestler like Lesnar has to be super careful when closing the distance like he was against Hunt. I'd say at HW strikers and wrestlers are equal. If we had athletic SHWs then strikers would probably be on top at SHW since getting hit once by an athletic 300+ pound man will take 99% of people out.

Anyone disagree?

Elite wrestlers at the lighter weight classes are also more explosive with their TDs, so that they may be a factor. For instance Kosch was getting taken down repeatedly by GSP in the first fight, but in the second fight he was able to stop the takedowns because he was able to time it and get the hooks in.

If Edson properly timed the underhooks against Lee's TDs (as he did later in the fight) he would have defended better as well.

Of course, then you have guys like khabib who don't need speed/explosion but can slowly overwhelm you with his strength to get the proper grips.

So basically, being lighter helps to be more explosive w/ TDs so it is my opinion why some of these lighter guys look unstoppable with their TDs, especially those who excel at blast doubles like GSP, Mendes, Lee and such.


But to give you the benefit of the doubt, Romero is super explosive at MW, but he is a freak of nature so he doesn't count.

 

[A.S. Deep]

Elite wrestlers at the lighter weight classes are also more explosive with their TDs, so that they may be a factor. For instance Kosch was getting taken down repeatedly by GSP in the first fight, but in the second fight he was able to stop the takedowns because he was able to time it and get the hooks in.

If Edson properly timed the underhooks against Lee's TDs (as he did later in the fight) he would have defended better as well.

Of course, then you have guys like khabib who don't need speed/explosion but can slowly overwhelm you with his strength to get the proper grips.

So basically, being lighter helps to be more explosive w/ TDs so it is my opinion why some of these lighter guys look unstoppable with their TDs, especially those who excel at blast doubles like GSP, Mendes, Lee and such.


But to give you the benefit of the doubt, Romero is super explosive at MW, but he is a freak of nature so he doesn't count.

Good point. Lighter guys will be quicker so they can close the distance faster.

 

[emax]

I just don't get this. Wasn't it common knowledge of the essentialness of grappling skills since the minute we understood conceptually what BJJ was? And wasn't wrestling's unique importance basically cemented as we went from a midwest farmer slamming everyone in front of him at WW to Jon Jones, Miocic, Dillashaw and Mighty Mouse?

 

[nhbfan8080]

Can we now agree that in most cases a good wrestler is superior than a good striker in a fist fight?

Not really. The top fighters have managed to fuse together a well rounded game.

 

[BigMuffler]

I call this the grappler's advantage.

On average, it's easier to get a takedown/grab someone than it is to KO someone in the lighter weight classes. BUT the higher in weight you go the easier it is to KO someone. This is why at LHW you start getting guys like Manuwa and Volkan who can get by on power and why at HW nearly everyone relies a fair bit on power. Basically, a FW wrestler like Mendes can get hit by a few punches while closing the distance, but a HW wrestler like Lesnar has to be super careful when closing the distance like he was against Hunt. I'd say at HW strikers and wrestlers are equal. If we had athletic SHWs then strikers would probably be on top at SHW since getting hit once by an athletic 300+ pound man will take 99% of people out.

Anyone disagree?

I'm not sure it's actually possible to have a decent roster of SHWs who are athletic enough for that part to be relevant. You might get one or two actual athletic SHWs and they'll dominate automatically outside of flukey losses whether they are striker or grappler.

 

[A.S. Deep]

I'm not sure it's actually possible to have a decent roster of SHWs who are athletic enough for that part to be relevant. You might get one or two actual athletic SHWs and they'll dominate automatically outside of flukey losses whether they are striker or grappler.

I'm not sure it's actually possible to have a decent roster of SHWs who are athletic enough for that part to be relevant. You might get one or two actual athletic SHWs and they'll dominate automatically outside of flukey losses whether they are striker or grappler.

I was imagining a world where we did have a full SHW division, which can possibly happen in 20-30 years for all we know. The UFC actually has a SHW division. They just almost never use it.

 

[BigMuffler]

I was imagining a world where we did have a full SHW division, which can possibly happen in 20-30 years for all we know. The UFC actually has a SHW division. They just almost never use it.

Well boxing has never managed to have more than like 1 good SHW sized fighter at a time and they have been around much longer and supposedly have a deeper talent pool.

 

[DS66]

Let's not forget, even after all the GnP beatdown he was getting, Barboza basically ended the fight with one well timed strike. If he would've followed up that spin kick with a nice switch kick to the head while Lee was doing his chicken dance, it was game over.

So a striker always has a chance to end it. But yeah, overall I'd say it's become pretty clear that elite wrestling is the number 1 skill you'd want to have as an MMA fighter.

 

[grimballer]

Not really

If striker has good tdd then he’ll have the edge

 

[ChucksGlassJaw]

It's hard to tell. There's really only a handful of decent boxers in MMA. There are no really good boxers in MMA. Conor is the closest and he's okay.

 

[superpunch]

As a general rule, wrestler > striker.

HOWEVER, we're seeing that the very top level of fighter is a striker.

 

[superpunch]

It's hard to tell. There's really only a handful of decent boxers in MMA. There are no really good boxers in MMA. Conor is the closest and he's okay.

This too. We have the best wrestlers ever in MMA, and the top strikers in MMA are regional level or kickboxers, who, since kickboxing like MMA is a fringe sport, are as good as regional level boxers.

 

[ChucksGlassJaw]

If we're talking a world class wrestler with decent boxing vs a world class boxer with decent TDD, I'm taking the boxer every damn time. Boxing is easily the most refined, advanced fighting discipline. If we're talking a street fight between a good boxer and a good wrestler, the wrestler is going to sleep.