So what is the best sword fighting to learn?

[Osstopher McGi]

I have no idea what Koryu does. All I am saying is that I can smash a cinder block with a good bokken. Its a dangerous thing to use in all out sparring. When I spar Gumdo, I use a shinai. When I spar HEMA I use rebated steel.

Fair enough.

 

[Osstopher McGi]

The steel trainers we use bend and flex. This helps to absorb and dissipate energy when you are struck. A bokken or waster doesn't. Its rigid. Its like being struck with a bat. I have actually been hurt more with the shinai than I have with the steel trainers.

Yes, the idea in the groups I have trained with was that in training with the bokken there is still a lot of incentive to move out of the way or not get hit. Getting hit in practise translates to getting cut in a real situation which is why the preferred use was the bokken as it still hurts a good deal. The body builds reflexes against being hit again by it.
Koryu have been using bokken for hundreds of years.

Also bokken are balanced correctly which is important, I have never seen a shinai which was balanced correctly. It often feels the same to me as the difference in balance between a $100 high carbon steel "katana" from eBay and my Tozando shinken...

ETA: Basically the preference is going to come down to the different priorities in different arts. My kenjutsu experience is primarily with koryu bujutsu groups, which all preserve the arts as a cultural history, due to each ryu being an authentic and unbroken "flow" or lineage from respective Soke to Soke back to their founding periods. Because of this "preservative" nature there is a huge focus on everything being done correctly; which requires the use of weapons which conform to the correct dimensions and attributes, balance being an extremely critical one.
Other sword arts have a focus on being able to compete in a point scoring bout, in which case the emphasis on being "correct" becomes a much lesser factor and being able to deliver blows consistently, rapidly and with full intention becomes the focal priority. So there is no need for a weapon to be correctly balanced, as it is not a priority to these arts.

At the end of the day, go with whatever you prefer and whatever fits your own priorities best I guess. I've even done partner drills with shinken, which was done occasionally to foster a true respect for the blade in one's attitude when practising. I've sparred full power and full speed with bokken, bo, hanbo, even shillelagh when I trained with a bata group for awhile. Some people would prefer not to do any of this; in which case, I say "do what you like".

 

[Tom Cruise]

I'm going to chime in on this thread. I only read the first page, so there's that.

Anyway, there is no 'best' sword art. Context is key, but since context is relatively meaningless in a modern landscape, it's more about what you're looking for. If you're just looking for something to be good at, then anything will do. I would make judgments based solely on aesthetics. If you're looking for something good for historical combat, I recommend HEMA (essentially history fencing, not modern fencing), or a koryu style of kenjutsu.

Mostly, this is going to boil down to what's available to you. Colorado, where I live, is bigger than a lot of other states as far as fencing or Asian sword fighting styles go, and even then there's only 2-3 HEMA clubs in the entire state, and then you have tons of kendo which don't realistically emulate historical combat. There do, of course, exist koryu swords arts, but they're largely in the Denver area. I'm not sure if this is a trend that persists in other states -- non-sport combative arts being located in metro areas that might be too far to attend.

What kendo will teach you is maai, which in European fencing is called 'measure.' This is the time, distance, and angles of striking (or line) between two people. If you've studied unarmed martial arts, you probably have some familiarity with measure.

The difference between HEMA and kendo is that in most HEMA clubs, you'll readily have access to historically accurate reproduction weapons that have a full-blade forte and rolled tips (as well as polypropylene weapons), whereas you'll mostly be using shinai/ bokken if studying kendo. Both are fine, but studying exclusively on shinai doesn't teach you proper edge alignment, weight of a sword, weight distribution, and general bad habits with handling real swords in regards to blade integrity, ect. Bokken do have orientation for this, but every place is different. Even then, bokken aren't an entirely accurate representation of katana, just like how a waster isn't an entirely accurate representation of a longsword.

If you manage to find a koryu kenjutsu place (unlikely), then it boils down to if you have a preference for European weapons (many HEMA clubs delve into fencing other than with a sword, such as polearms) or Japanese swords (since you've specifically stated in the OP that you have an interest for learning swordsmanship). It's unlikely that you'll find any Chinese or Korean places that practice with swords considering how saturated the market is with Japanese-centrism.

Personally, I've been doing kenjutsu for a long time and have always been interested in historical fencing, have picked up things here and there, but over the last year-and-a-half have devoted more time towards reading manuscripts and manuals, and I find it enjoyable. As far as modern fencing (never having done it myself), I've seen a lot of techniques that are more about getting points before the other person using techniques and strategies that would more or less be liable to kill both people if you fought that way in a real duel. That's just my speculation.

 

[Osstopher McGi]

I'm going to chime in on this thread. I only read the first page, so there's that.

Anyway, there is no 'best' sword art. Context is key, but since context is relatively meaningless in a modern landscape, it's more about what you're looking for. If you're just looking for something to be good at, then anything will do. I would make judgments based solely on aesthetics. If you're looking for something good for historical combat, I recommend HEMA (essentially history fencing, not modern fencing), or a koryu style of kenjutsu.

Mostly, this is going to boil down to what's available to you. Colorado, where I live, is bigger than a lot of other states as far as fencing or Asian sword fighting styles go, and even then there's only 2-3 HEMA clubs in the entire state, and then you have tons of kendo which don't realistically emulate historical combat. There do, of course, exist koryu swords arts, but they're largely in the Denver area. I'm not sure if this is a trend that persists in other states -- non-sport combative arts being located in metro areas that might be too far to attend.

What kendo will teach you is maai, which in European fencing is called 'measure.' This is the time, distance, and angles of striking (or line) between two people. If you've studied unarmed martial arts, you probably have some familiarity with measure.

The difference between HEMA and kendo is that in most HEMA clubs, you'll readily have access to historically accurate reproduction weapons that have a full-blade forte and rolled tips (as well as polypropylene weapons), whereas you'll mostly be using shinai/ bokken if studying kendo. Both are fine, but studying exclusively on shinai doesn't teach you proper edge alignment, weight of a sword, weight distribution, and general bad habits with handling real swords in regards to blade integrity, ect. Bokken do have orientation for this, but every place is different. Even then, bokken aren't an entirely accurate representation of katana, just like how a waster isn't an entirely accurate representation of a longsword.

If you manage to find a koryu kenjutsu place (unlikely), then it boils down to if you have a preference for European weapons (many HEMA clubs delve into fencing other than with a sword, such as polearms) or Japanese swords (since you've specifically stated in the OP that you have an interest for learning swordsmanship). It's unlikely that you'll find any Chinese or Korean places that practice with swords considering how saturated the market is with Japanese-centrism.

Personally, I've been doing kenjutsu for a long time and have always been interested in historical fencing, have picked up things here and there, but over the last year-and-a-half have devoted more time towards reading manuscripts and manuals, and I find it enjoyable. As far as modern fencing (never having done it myself), I've seen a lot of techniques that are more about getting points before the other person using techniques and strategies that would more or less be liable to kill both people if you fought that way in a real duel. That's just my speculation.

Great post. Personally in my experience (and unless things have changed significantly in the last 15 years or so) koryu are not excessively difficult to find, although training in one will probably involve some form of travel if you do not live in a main centre, but the difficulty lies in being accepted into the ryu. Many koryu schools encompass a broad range of weaponry but Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and Hyoho NIten Ichii Ryu are two wide spread, broadly accepting kenjutsu based koryu. Even then they can be difficult to be accepted into. It is what it is.

 

[MarcoW]

I had my first longsword lesson yesterday.
first we learned how to walk around with the footwork, including passing, advancing and gathering steps.
next we learned how to hold the sword and throw 6 basic cuts on different angles, we used wooden waisters. First we slashed the air and then we slashed a hanging wooden plank thing covered in cloth they called a pelle.
we finished by doing some drills to show us some things that can be done from the bind, including pommel strikes and disarming of the sword.

seemed pretty cool.

 

[Doughbelly]

Kali or escrima sound like the would met you needs as both are essentially "machette arts". Which make them mostly legal and available.

Couldn't disagree more.

Although I've heard people refer to their escrima, kali, arnis, etc style as blade based versus stick based, I have yet to actually see a single practitioner or video of one that clearly wasn't stick based and just swapping in machetes for sticks.

It's not even on the level of the prior discussion here about kendo being stick fighting - as highly abstracted as kendo is from classical Japanese sword combat, the movements, the measure, the timing, the distance etc are very clearly derived from sword combat.

IMO, everything about Filipino styles screams "stick fighting" not bladed weapons fighting.

Besides, machetes feel nothing like swords in the hand, have completely different wounding profiles and even in places where machete violence isn't completely uncommon, no one gets into fights with them. Straight up murder and assault, yes. Machete fighting? Never heard of it happening.

 

[Phlog]

If I hear a noise downstairs and go to investigate I grab my my katana. I am most satisfied in my ability to use it and guns are illegal here.

 

[JusticeMonkey]

Anyone know what kind of blade (machete like) or style Denzel used in that Book Of Eli movie.

 

[Smesa]

Kali and Eskrima are probably the way to go

 

[Smesa]

Couldn't disagree more.

Although I've heard people refer to their escrima, kali, arnis, etc style as blade based versus stick based, I have yet to actually see a single practitioner or video of one that clearly wasn't stick based and just swapping in machetes for sticks.

It's not even on the level of the prior discussion here about kendo being stick fighting - as highly abstracted as kendo is from classical Japanese sword combat, the movements, the measure, the timing, the distance etc are very clearly derived from sword combat.

IMO, everything about Filipino styles screams "stick fighting" not bladed weapons fighting.

Besides, machetes feel nothing like swords in the hand, have completely different wounding profiles and even in places where machete violence isn't completely uncommon, no one gets into fights with them. Straight up murder and assault, yes. Machete fighting? Never heard of it happening.

As a person that has trained at both Eskrima and Kenjutsu, I think that though Eskrima has borrowed a few techniques, Eskrima is the best for beginners and casual knife and sword fighters.

 

[Doughbelly]

As a person that has trained at both Eskrima and Kenjutsu, I think that though Eskrima has borrowed a few techniques, Eskrima is the best for beginners and casual knife and sword fighters.

Can you back up your supposition?

I have taught kenjutsu (HDGD) and trained in Filipino styles, in the US and in the Philippines, as well have having seen and treated the results of so much machete violence that I've lost count.

My opinion is that escrima is primarily stick and knife based and the idea that there is much applicability to sword/long blade based fighting is not at all based in reality.