So what is the best sword fighting to learn?

[MarcoW]

My friends and I are all interested in swords and wanted to get prolypropolene training swords to practice.

I always wanted to do kendo and still do, but in all the kendo vs fencing videos I see fencing usually wins.

Is longsword effective as well?

Armor suits aren't really in use anymore so I figure effectiveness against armor doesn't matter as much as ability to score a hit and the critical damage of that hit.

 

[milliniar]

HEMA or kenjutsu

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Well, since you are highly unlikely to use a sword to defend yourself, you need to find out what your other goals are. Kendo and fencing are both very worthy and demanding arts, but they have both evolved away from the original sword arts they descended from. If you want to compete though, they are your best options.

Kenjutsu is a fine option, but genuine kenjutsu is very hard to find outside of Japan. You may be able to find a shinkendo club in your area, which is a Japanese sword art. If cutting is your thing, Iaido is becoming common. Haedong Gumdo is a korean art based on Toyama Ryu Kenjutsu, and its becoming quite common.

HEMA is becoming more common, but quality training is still fairly scarce. Different clubs emphasize different things, so you can find single handed swords, rapier, longsword, sword and buckler etc. If sparring is your thing, most HEMA clubs spar frequently and there is a growing plethora of tournaments to go to.

If all you want to do is fight, the SCA heavy combat may be your thing. If you are really hardcore, the historical medieval battles scene may be for you...but be warned..their events have something like a 30% injury rate.

 

[DoctorTaco]

My friends and I are all interested in swords and wanted to get prolypropolene training swords to practice.

I always wanted to do kendo and still do, but in all the kendo vs fencing videos I see fencing usually wins.

Is longsword effective as well?

Armor suits aren't really in use anymore so I figure effectiveness against armor doesn't matter as much as ability to score a hit and the critical damage of that hit.

And swords are? If you guys are doing it for fun, just have fun.

 

[MarcoW]

And swords are? If you guys are doing it for fun, just have fun.

not really doing it for fun.
Kind of feel compelled to have skills in martial arts, archery and some kind of sword.
It isn't really for fun, more for the sake of having the skills.
I just feel like its something I want to know.
But I want to know what would have actually been most effective, even if only historically.
HEMA seems good, but not sure where to find.

Do kendo techniques not work with real Katana's?
By this I mean would a historical duel be nothing like a kendo match (excluding the not getting cut and stabbed part)?
There is classical rapier taught somewhere near me. I may take that, although I would rather take kendo or something with a katana.
Thanks for input

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Kendo will teach you good distance and timing, excellent aggression and train your reflexes but a shinai is not a sword and the actual techniques of kendo are more akin to a kind of stickfighting.

Rapiers are absolutely deadly weapons and considerably more physically demanding than unarmoured 2 handed sword.

As for HEMA, where do you live? I can check if there are any clubs.

 

[MarcoW]

aapparently there is a swordplay association in my town and they focus on "fiore style longsword"
reading google makes it look like fiore is a style of fighting rather than an actual kind of sword.
so hopefully it is a good system.
its $15 per lesson drop in and 40 per month for membership so seems like a good deal

 

[Fire of Youth]

As a general rule, fighting against armoured opponents usually uses heavy slashing movements whilst fighting against unarmoured opponents uses fast stabbing movements. Since you are assuming no armour, fencing or some similar art would seem to be what you are looking for.

 

[barnowl]

Kali or escrima sound like the would met you needs as both are essentially "machette arts". Which make them mostly legal and available.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

As a general rule, fighting against armoured opponents usually uses heavy slashing movements whilst fighting against unarmoured opponents uses fast stabbing movements. Since you are assuming no armour, fencing or some similar art would seem to be what you are looking for.

Fighting armoured opponents involves thrusting and grappling. You cannot cut armour.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

aapparently there is a swordplay association in my town and they focus on "fiore style longsword"
reading google makes it look like fiore is a style of fighting rather than an actual kind of sword.
so hopefully it is a good system.
its $15 per lesson drop in and 40 per month for membership so seems like a good deal

Fiore is an 14th century Italian master who wrote a treatise known as "Flos Duelletorum". In the manuscript he lays out an entire, integrated system of fighting using all the chivalric weapons..longsword (one handed, two handed, armoured and unarmoured), grappling, spear, dagger and poleaxe. He also describes mounted combat. His system is called Armizare.

Fiore specialized in training men for duels and judicial combat, and his style is no nonsense and remarkably straight forward. Once you understand how the manuscript is laid out, you'll notice the same techniques and concepts being employed for every weapon.

Here's an example of some of his techniques..these ones are longsword and form part of what he calls the Zogho Stretto..the close play when two fighters come within grappling range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WCgubznOlI

 

[Fire of Youth]

Fighting armoured opponents involves thrusting and grappling. You cannot cut armour.

I've read that the majority of armoured duels ended in a grappling match and finished with daggers. Essentially they would be bashing to penetrate the armour with their big heavy weapons if possible, but to dislodge their footing in any case. Once down, it is very hard to get back up quickly in full plate. So they would be grappling until they could get an opportunity to thrust a dagger home between the seems of the armour or underneath the chin of the helm. Is this what you are referring to?

 

[MarcoW]

you seem knowledgable in this Ski. So you would say the Fiore system is effective and worth learning?

I've read that the majority of armoured duels ended in a grappling match and finished with daggers. Essentially they would be bashing to penetrate the armour with their big heavy weapons if possible, but to dislodge their footing in any case. Once down, it is very hard to get back up quickly in full plate. So they would be grappling until they could get an opportunity to thrust a dagger home between the seems of the armour or underneath the chin of the helm. Is this what you are referring to?

I wonder if armoured knights were doing BJJ sweeps in the middle ages lol. I wonder if they could work in armor... it would be hard with all that extra weight holding you down.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

I've read that the majority of armoured duels ended in a grappling match and finished with daggers. Essentially they would be bashing to penetrate the armour with their big heavy weapons if possible, but to dislodge their footing in any case. Once down, it is very hard to get back up quickly in full plate. So they would be grappling until they could get an opportunity to thrust a dagger home between the seems of the armour or underneath the chin of the helm. Is this what you are referring to?

Armour is lighter than most people know. A typical harness weighs about 65 pounds. You literally can do hanstands and somersaults in a good harness. You absolutely can get up easily.

Understand..when facing a man in harness, the sword is not the preferred weapon. The preferred weapon was a pollaxe. But if you had to face a man in armour with your sword, you did not bash. longswords about 3.5 pounds and make lousy bludgeons. What you did was grip your sword with one hand on the handle, and one hand on the blade and use it like a short spear. Then you closed the distance and tried to thrust into weak spots, such as the armpits, groin, neck. Or you tried to break his joints and throw him to the ground.

This entailed alot of grappling and the europeans had thier own systems of combat grappling for this stuff that looks very similar to jujutsu or Judo. Now it often did end at daggers drawn, and the daggers they used were designed to by used in an icepick grip and punch through mail armour.

example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4k-vjdeZO4

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

you seem knowledgable in this Ski. So you would say the Fiore system is effective and worth learning?

Yup. Its an excellent integreated system. The entire system is extrapolated from four basic body positions, and you can apply the basics to just about any weapon you can think of. And Fiore was no mall ninja..he was famous in his day and his students read like a who's who of the famous condotta of italy.

I wonder if armoured knights were doing BJJ sweeps in the middle ages lol. I wonder if they could work in armor... it would be hard with all that extra weight holding you down.

The europeans had a fully developed system of grappling, but ground fighting was not well developed. You can't pull guard against a pollaxe :icon_chee

The emphasis was on breaking joints and throwing to the ground. If you got taken off your feet, you were probably dead.

This is an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6P1boVkY0

 

[Phlog]

I recommend a good teacher of Toyama Ryu. Practical, live blade use, actual cutting, sparring etc.

 

[MarcoW]

I've decided I'm going to try learning the Fiore style longsword as I've seen a bunch of videos and it seems practical and fun. And I've seen some cutting done with it as well. Unfortunately a lot of these sword practitioners (on Youtube and at the club I'm going to go to) seem incredibly out of shape, and a little weird.
Maybe I was hoping for too much when I was expecting super athletes slinging swords around.

 

[Gregolian]

the actual techniques of kendo are more akin to a kind of stickfighting.

LOL wut?



Does not look like "stickfighting" to me, especially at the higher levels. And when my dumb 3 dan ass is stuck fighting a guy that is 7 dan:


I'm the dude with the white ribbon fighting 4th on my team. Guy I am fighting is a former long time captain of Team Canada.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

I have fought many times with Shinai, as the other art I do is Gumdo. A shinai is completely different from steel. It is much lighter, it does not bind, it does not transmit any sense of fuhlen.

The techniques of Kendo are highly optimised for the ruleset of kendo and the use of the Shinai. It has specific targets, little in the way of grappling, and being competitive naturally privileges offense over defense.

It isn't swordfighting, but rather an art that is derived from swordfighting. If you fought a sword match the way you fight a kendo match, both fighters would kill each other very quickly.

That isn't intended to demean it. Its a very worthy art. But it is very different from the Kenjutsu schools it derives from. The actual sword techniques in kendo are preserved in the Kata.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

I've decided I'm going to try learning the Fiore style longsword as I've seen a bunch of videos and it seems practical and fun. And I've seen some cutting done with it as well. Unfortunately a lot of these sword practitioners (on Youtube and at the club I'm going to go to) seem incredibly out of shape, and a little weird.
Maybe I was hoping for too much when I was expecting super athletes slinging swords around.

Yes, that is a problem in the HEMA community. The first generation of HEMA were scholars, SCA types and former LARPers, not martial artists. Distinctly nonathletic folks who had to teach themselves. Due to its nature, it still attracts a large number of fantasists and would be LARPers.

But things are improving as levels of athleticism are increasing. My personal favorite fighter to watch is this gentleman in the white pants, who is quite athletic and represents the latest generation of HEMAists quite well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLslXY4MmiQ&list=UUUs6h_oZ3H5funDNXywi40Q&index=13